Trans people are NOT a threat in same sex spaces

[DonnaBe]

So says a study done in Massachusetts and reported in the Boston Globe.

“Study finds no link between transgender rights law and bathroom crimes”

www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2018/09/11/study-finds-link-between-transgender-rights-law-and-bathroom-crimes/1YWqSptLXOSiobmbH0RBMM/story.html


Maybe we can all take up hobbies now instead of hating on trans people and doctors ?

How about soup making?

[Pleasedonotforgetthetenpercent]

Apologies for my spelling errors I struggle to express this well

[HandlebarTash81]

OP You speak so loudly in defence of the right for TW to use female toilets. Why? If there’s no risk of violence when a male-bodied person encounters a female space (as you’re at pain to point out in this non-supported research) then why is it important? Many transwomen feel vulnerable in exclusively male intimate space, is that why? Is it such a stretch then to understand why women would feel similarly vulnerable to people who are a) socialised male b) in all likelihood, with male genitalia c) are comfortable over-riding the vulnerability of women to serve their own needs.

[DixieFlatline]

It is a valid point and a fair point that I have made politely.

Do you see everyone else following up their own posts with comments on the validity, fairness and politeness of their points?

[FishCanFly]

its not just about threat. it's about boundaries and bloody effing privacy. Or that's outdated and bigoted too? maybe let's just tear down all the toilets walls and doors and make them one open-plan space. now that would be so diverse and inclusive.

[ShotsFired]

@Pleasedonotforgetthetenpercent:

Click this and start typing. It's your own thread, you can say what you like about what you like, rather than pointlessly derailing one about something else entirely: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights?call=NewConversationPage

[DixieFlatline]

ShotsFired: Just make the thread yourself and then send Please your login details. It's quite the ask to expect them to create their own thread on a topic they are so passionate about raising awareness of.

[deepwatersolo]

You know, DonnaB, what I would like to see is proof that peeing in the men's toilet is a threat to transwomen.
Without demonstrable threat to their bodily integrity in men's toilets the insistence of transwomen to enter our spaces looks just capricious and spiteful.

[Pleasedonotforgetthetenpercent]

I havw started a thread.

[OlennasWimple]

I know most of the places mentioned in that study quite well.

I would love to know how many Jewish women in places like Brookline and Newton have been pushed out of public spaces because they are no longer able to access female only facilities. That sort of stuff doesn't get recorded or taken into account in these types of studies, but IMO is an equally valid part of the overall argument

[HandlebarTash81]

The irony of this is: I’d be quite happy for trans women to use Women’s toilets if they didn’t want to because they understood it puts women in a vulnerable position. They’re the TW who do seem to understand how it feels to be a woman - that rings true. But putting your need for safety ahead of ours? Male characteristic.

[longtimelurkingtrans]

I agree with you DonnaBe, But unfortunately we can never use them due to the predators using TS or TG as their guise and brazenly walk into these areas for their own gratification or worse, There is a sex offender local to me and "transitioned" in time for release with name change (new identity) and has been using female toilets without a second thought, But Thankfully new name and pictures of offender were published in the press, Never posted a link incase it violates MN rules, but I can if need be.

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

Day old account derailing - perhaps working in tandem with another GF - women calling them out for having no empathy for the risk of women and girls being put in harms way with reduced safeguarding. One could be forgiven for thinking that screenshots for Twitter are the prize

[placemats]

I'd like to know why Donna doesn't want to go into the men's toilet.

Do you feel unsafe there? If you do then why is that?

[Ereshkigal]

Donna is here to patronise and dismiss us and screenshot us for twitter. Donna isn’t here in good faith at all. Donna wants us to submit to Donna’s wants and views of the world. Which is a pretty masculine behaviour trait, incidentally.

This. Many of us are familiar with Donna.

[miri1985]

I've just read the study as I have access. There was actually an increase in assaults when clear "GIPANDOs" (gender identity inclusive public accommodation nondiscrimination ordinances) were introduced in Massachusetts (yes its limited to localities in one state) there was a decrease when localities introduced limited GIPANDO's which the authors seem to include as evidence despite the fact that the law they are trying to promote will be a clear GIPANDO. This study is limited to a 12 months before and after introduction of the law so if there was a particularly crime filled year one year it would skew the results. I doubt I'm allowed to paste the whole text, so I've just included the tables

[Knicknackpaddyflak]

I'm way past the soul destroying battle against reality denial for those who insist women and girls will be safe, always, in all situations, it will never never never go wrong (except for all the times it has). I don't care if you believe in a threat or not, Donna. My answer's no. I won't accept any male bodied people into spaces where I'm changing, toileting, sleeping or receiving intimate care. I'm not comfortable with it and I don't give consent.

[ShotsFired]

^ and that denial of consent has to be the the deciding factor. It's the status quo, and you need to have overwhelming proof that the reasons it is that way now no longer exist.

Let alone there being no evidence, there is significant evidence to the contrary.

So, "no" has to be the overriding decision.

[TimeForDebate]

Another good reason to keep women's space separate: https//www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/03/a-part-of-daily-life-south-korea-confronts-its-voyeurism-epidemic-sexual-harassment

[Tellin]

Gender neutral bathrooms having to be reassessed in Toronto. Nothing to do with trans people, everything to do with men taking advantage.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thestar.com/amp/news/crime/2015/10/05/university-of-toronto-alters-bathroom-policy-after-two-reports-of-voyeurism.html

OP, I'd love for you to answer the point about why developing world policies are actually encouraging sex segregated toilets to reduce sexual assault - even in countries like India which have recognised a third gender (Hijra) for ages. Isn't that interesting?

[dolorsit]

Miri

I'm not sure I understand and I can't see the images properly.

Are you saying that the paper doesn't quite say what the article says.

That incidents increased when the facilities went unisex and then decreased when they became gender? restricted but still higher than when they were unisex?

I must admit I found it a bit odd that such a groundbreaking and critical report only had the abstract showing. The article read more like advertising to buy the paper rather than a proper report .

[AsAProfessionalFekko]

Transsexual (m2f) in the ladies loo - OK
Transvestite? No way dude.

[malaguena]

It would be more appropriate to provide evidence that trans women are at risk in male facilities, designed for their sex. Sex-segregated facilities worked very well for women for the last couple of centuries, surely if you want to change that, you should bring evidence showing why it's better for women to use mixed-sex spaces? Personally I don't care whether or not trans women are a risk. I don't want to share spaces where I'm half naked and vulnerable with males. I don't owe anyone an explanation.

[AsAProfessionalFekko]

Same goes for male furries, adult babies, chubbys, pretend dogs, adult nappy wearers and my little pony fetishists. Who, from my observation, seem to be mostly men.

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

No means No - what's so hard to comprehend? It's either the start of a negotiation to understand my position or the start of a war in the face of refusing to hear my side - you choose...

[CrackpotsArePots]

Donna starts threads, runs out of steam, plonks herself in the middle of another. Donna is unable to maintain an interaction