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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Girlguiding expels leaders who question trans policy

770 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 23/09/2018 01:04

Well, I guess I knew this was coming. Dissent will not be tolerated. Forget the safety concerns, the privacy and dignity issues, the managing out of gender non-confirming girls. What's really serious is one leader referring to another leader "a nightmare" in a private conversation.

Girl Guide leaders expelled for questioning trans policy

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/34139ed0-bea5-11e8-8d21-451ec1df6b83

Two Guide leaders who had raised safeguarding concerns about the organisation’s transgender policy have been expelled and had their units closed down.

Dozens of children face disappointment because there is no one else to run the units. The expelled leaders say they will take legal action against Girlguiding if their removals are upheld.

Helen Watts, one of 12 leaders who signed a letter to The Sunday Times in April asking for a review of the policy, was told on Friday that her membership was being terminated after more than 15 years with the Guides.

At least one other signatory, based in the northwest of England, was expelled. Documents seen by The Sunday Times suggest disciplinary investigations have been launched against at least five Guide leaders.

[Edited by MNHQ to remove copyright materiel]

OP posts:
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titchy · 27/09/2018 08:38

Fuck me that's a good article. Lambasted. Brilliant word.

Chocolala · 27/09/2018 08:39

Well thank fuck at least one newspaper has worked out there are massive issues with GG policy and are actually highlighting them rather than parroting the TRA position.

NoSquirrels · 27/09/2018 08:47

Great article from Lucy Bannerman. Brilliant.

The commenters below the line see it too.

Popchyk · 27/09/2018 09:10

Really good article from The Times. Gets to the heart of it.

GG are trans inclusive for boys only.

But not girls.

The trans lobby of course have nothing to say about girls getting booted out because of their gender identity. Funny how some discrimination is perfectly okay, isn't it? So long as it isn't males who are affected.

ChattyLion · 27/09/2018 09:21

Exactly.
It’s essential to be supportive and inclusive of trans kids.
Er.. Except when they were born female.

Popchyk · 27/09/2018 09:45

And what makes it even more heartbreaking is the record number of girls who are questioning their gender identity.

For those girls who are already in Girl Guiding, the one safe space that should be supporting them through that has changed its rules to kick them out.

It is utterly shameful.

miri1985 · 27/09/2018 10:23

Shower thought this morning: "the effing masons are more inclusive than GG" they let members who transition stay.

I don't think a single sex organisation needs to be inclusive of anyone other than of that sex but I think GG should be available for everyone born female who wants to be a member

ICantBelieveIDidThis · 27/09/2018 14:00

Aimee Challoner is happy to support the Girl Guides.

m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=484938835249598&id=203074990102652

Note the photo of Aimee at the bottom of a loft ladder.

WarmWishes · 27/09/2018 14:12

Has the EHRC tweet been discussed on here yet?

WarmWishes · 27/09/2018 14:13

This one

Girlguiding expels leaders who question trans policy
OldCrone · 27/09/2018 14:29

Are the EHRC saying that GG can restrict membership on the basis of sex, but also be trans inclusive by allowing girls who identify as boys to be members, as they are still legally female? Boys who identify as girls should clearly not be allowed to join, because they are legally male.

Adults who are legally female could be leaders. This would include transwomen with a GRC and female birth certificate.

I'm sure the law could have been applied quite simply like this, but GG chose to consult Gendered Intelligence instead of the EHRC.

WarmWishes · 27/09/2018 14:53

I think that's what it means but the original GG policy wasn't intended to be trans inclusive in this way, as far as I understand it but everything is getting so complicated now!

OldCrone · 27/09/2018 15:02

In this tweet, the GG have said that girls will not now be managed out if they identify as boys.
twitter.com/TimesLucy/status/1045251761227943936

If girls can stay even if they identify as boys, GG are accepting that girls are still girls no matter how they identify. Surely then they have to accept that boys are still boys, no matter how they identify.

Beamur · 27/09/2018 15:13

I wonder if they've quite thought that through given that tweet also has GG saying they're a single gender organisation.

Annandale · 27/09/2018 15:19

I'm VERY pleased about that Old Crone. But that continues to suggest that the amount of intellectual engagement and just plain thinking that went into this policy was essentially nil - they got legal advice based on who knows what questions or assumptions, and never thrashed out any of the real world implications.

Billy21 · 27/09/2018 15:46

While it has been as tortuous as pulling hen's teeth, the slight change in wording in today's pronouncement is, hopefully, the first tentative step by GG to review and reconsider its position over including male persons with penises in GG.

This is my first message on MN so hopefully I have not crossed some line or other with my language. I have managed to get away with it on Twitter, but I am not sure if MN is so understanding.

I

IdahoJones · 27/09/2018 16:16

Billy, is place is a cottonwool palace compared to Twitter

titchy · 27/09/2018 16:22

So according to that tweet to Lucy Bannerman GG are now NEITHER single sex (they'll accept Male and female members), nor single gender (they'll accept members who identify as girls and those that identify as boys). At least their position this morning was consistent.....

The words piss up and brewery spring to mind.

IdahoJones · 27/09/2018 16:28

This is extraordinary. They actually don't know what they're doing, saying, or thinking any more.

LangCleg · 27/09/2018 16:34

This is extraordinary. They actually don't know what they're doing, saying, or thinking any more.

Which is what happens when you're stupid enough to get drunk on the Kool Aid.

So, Guides - which is it? Are you a single sex or a single "gender identity" organisation? Because you can't be both. The law says so.

seafret · 27/09/2018 16:49

GGs need to admit they have been groomed - the answer is to learn a hard lesson and use it to better look after the safety of GIRLS.

speakingwoman · 27/09/2018 16:54

basically they take girls and anyone who identifies as trans.

there - I should help them!

Knicknackpaddyflak · 27/09/2018 16:54

Not managing out transboys is a definite step in the right direction.

breastfeedingclownfish · 27/09/2018 17:08

This paper was published by the Scottish Government regarding bullying in Scottish schools. It is grim reading.

dera.ioe.ac.uk/29835/1/EHRiC_5th_Report_2017_SP_Paper_185_Redacted.pdf

The section on sexual harrassment includes quotes from Girlguiding Scotland:

"Also worryingly, we heard of instances of sexual harassment directed at female students by male members of teaching staff. Girlguiding Scotland Youth Worker Susie McGuinness from Glasgow told us:

Girlguiding Scotland referred to the results of their 2014 Girls’ Attitude Survey on the views of girls and young women across the UK. This highlighted how widespread the problem was with 59% of girls aged 13 to 21 stating they had faced some form of sexual harassment at school or college in the past year . One in four had seen sexually explicit pictures or videos, or pictures or videos of girls or women
that made them feel uncomfortable. 22% of girls aged 7 to 12 had experienced jokes of a sexual nature from boys at school.

We encourage everyone who reads this report to watch the short video produced by Girlguiding Scotland on the impact of sexual harassment in schools. (see below)

I sat in a classroom with a guidance teacher who watched as a boy walked around the classroom and undid girls’ bras through their shirts, and I had a teacher who put everybody’s third-year picture up on the board and commented on what the girls looked like. That was quite normal. Schools need to be much clearer with their staff and clamp down on that.
Source:
Equalities and Human Rights Committee 15 June 2017 [Draft], Susie McGuiness, contrib.
Susie McGuinness also told us of instances of teaching staff approving or encouraging male students to commit physical assault on girls—
A young person in my guides group told me about a teacher who told a boy not to be too scared about hitting a girl, because, the teacher said, “She is a bit of crazy bitch.”
That same teacher came in on the first day of school and said to my 13-year-old friend, “So, let’s see which of the girls have developed over the summer
... That sort ofthing has been reported again and again at my school, but the girls’ concerns have been dismissed. That is normal.
Source:
Equalities and Human Rights Committee 15 June 2017 [Draft], Susie McGuiness, contrib.
Other witnesses we heard from highlighted alarming behaviour by both children and teaching staff.

Rape Crisis Scotland gave an example of “where girls have reported that boys in their school have raped them or coerced them into sending an image which has subsequently been shared. In some cases this has been reported to the police or social work, but no further action taken and the boy remains in the school. In addition to the trauma of the original abuse or assault, the girls have faced bullying, with problematic attitudes being brought into play for example that girls and women often lie about rape, and that when they are raped or sexually assaulted, they are in some way responsible

Watch this video - it's horrifying. Produced by GirlGuiding Scotland

This research documents the abuse that many young people receive, including girls, LGBT people, BAME and people with disabilities. None of it is acceptable. But why are girls the ones who have to give up their spaces to boys who have gender confusion issues? Girls need space away from boys for privacy and safety. Cross dressers are included in the definition of transgender including the definition given by LGBT Youth Scotland, who were contributers to this document. Some predatory boys will self identify to access female spaces for nefarious purposes. Trans people must be provided with a safe space for their requirements and dignity but which do not trample the rights of girls.

Girls ARE NOT at the bottom of the food chain