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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

US teaching hospitals are allowing medical students to perform pelvic exams on unconscious, unconsenting women? [Edited by MNHQ]

158 replies

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 21/09/2018 21:09

And it's perfectly legal in most states.

This is in America, not, as far as I know, in the UK. But I'm completely gobsmacked and really upset. I don't understand how this is allowed.

bust.com/feminism/195099-public-exams-anesthesia.html

" Did you know that doctors and med students are allowed to practice pelvic exams on patients who they are under anesthesia for unrelated surgeries? Did you know that they do not need to ask first, or let them know after if it happened?

I first heard about this phenomenon on the Throwing Shade podcast when Erin Gibson, author of the new book Feminasty, brought it up as her women's topic of the week. Erin read a report from the NYU Ethics Division detailing this ongoing practicing and continued to rant about how gross it is. I immediately started asking my friends if they knew about it. The responses to whether or not they knew was mixed, but the responses of disgust were consistent. I started doing further research and found that this practice is shockingly widespread.

It is very common for teaching hospitals around the world to have med students “practice” performing pelvic exams on a surgical patient while they are under anesthesia without their consent, or even knowledge. According to Medscape, oftentimes, multiple med students will practice on the same patient. In the US, non-consensual pelvic exams are legal in every state besides Hawaii, California, Illinois, and Virginia.

Phoebe Friesen, a medical researcher, published an article called "Educational Pelvic Exams On Anesthetized Women: Why Consent Matters" in which she studied the phenomenon. She noted that in 2005, a study at University of Oklahoma “found that a large majority of medical students had given pelvic exams to gynecologic surgery patients who were under anesthesia, and that in nearly three quarters of these cases the women had not consented to the exam.” She also states that “the vast majority (72–100%) of women say they expect to be specifically consented for an educational pelvic exam performed while they are under anesthesia” and that many women “said they would feel ‘physically assaulted’ if not consented.”

According to Medscape, a 2007 study done in Canada found that 72 percent of med students admitted to having done a pelvic exam on an anesthetized patient. A common argument for these non-consensual pelvis exams made by doctors is that many patients would say no—which is really a further reason for why they should be asking. If patients are not willing to be used as test subjects, medical school should hire people to practice on who are informed and willing.

Lauren Dobson-Hughes, an activist and former president of Planned Parenthood, wrote a thread on Twitter about this epidemic. She said that after there was media coverage about this happening, many people came forward about unexplained internal bruising and vaginal pain after undergoing an unrelated surgery. She heard anecdotally from many others saying their demands for their own medical records had been blocked or redacted as hospitals attempt to cover up their rape-y practices.

In 2013, writer Tasneem published a personal essay on XOJane about how she suspected this had happened to her but she has no way of knowing. She double checked the fine print in what she signed before her surgery to make sure she had not unknowingly agreed to it but there was nothing. She writes, “Why wouldn’t they just ask me if they could try it out while I was conscious, I wondered? I am a sexual health activist, and I’d love to help people get better at giving pelvic exams!” She called her doctor to ask him directly and, “he responded brusquely that he does so many surgeries that he could not say for sure whether or not it had happened.” She then asked if it is something he’s done in the past with medical students and he said yes. She filed for an investigation with the patient advocacy center of the hospital, but she never heard back.

This widespread use of patients' bodies is intwined in the sexual assault epidemic we are seeing rise to the surface with the #MeToo movement. It is a further assumption that any body that is not cis and male is open for invasive practice without question. If you live in a state where this is legal, which is very likely since that includes 46, pressure your legislatures to change that."

Livid.

OP posts:
SonicVersusGynaephobia · 21/09/2018 21:11

So livid I messed up the title.

Dammit.

OP posts:
Lazypoolday · 21/09/2018 21:13

I live in the US and had no idea about this. Truly shocking that this is allowed.

FloralBunting · 21/09/2018 21:14

That's horrible.

OlennasWimple · 21/09/2018 21:14

I read about this years ago when I was living in the US. It made me feel physically sick

ConsiderHerWaysAndOthers · 21/09/2018 21:14

This is one of the few times I’m glad I live in Illinois... Have heard this before though, can’t remember where as it was yonks ago, it’s certainly not ‘new’ news. Utterly disgusting though.

LadyBrienne · 21/09/2018 21:16

I have horrified - absolutely horrified - I had no idea and can not believe .... CAN NOT BELIEVE ... that this is allowed

FermatsTheorem · 21/09/2018 21:17

It's a horrifying practice.

I'm surprised, given how litigious the US is, that this practice still goes on there (it used to be routine in this country until fairly recently - a matter of a decade or so, I believe).

Whatsthisbear · 21/09/2018 21:24

Horrifying. How can anyone think this is acceptable? Shock

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 21/09/2018 21:26

Well I suppose I shouldn't really be surprised at this, given that an attempted rapist is about to be SCOTUS and then ban women from having an abortion.

But yet, I am.

It feels like every day the oppression of women plumbs new depths.

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PerryPerryThePlatypus · 21/09/2018 21:27

It used to happen the UK, not in the far distant past if I recall correctly. Systematic abuse of women and not seeing them as people but as a collection of holes for various purposes. Sickening.

LadyBrienne · 21/09/2018 21:29

if you are so inebriated with drugs or alcohol as to be unconscious, and someone does that, isn't it called sexual assault because you are unable to give consent?

how is this any different? - you are unconscious due to drugs and unable to give consent

for an advanced science, this is evil

Poppyred85 · 21/09/2018 21:30

It has been standard practice in the UK for medical students to ask a woman for her consent to examination prior to any procedure or anaesthetic being administered for at least 15 years. I suspect before then it was considered that it wasn’t but the ethics of consent have changed over the last decade. As a comparison when I was a junior doctor some 10 years ago it was standard procedure for me to consent patients for operations prior to their surgery but when I finished hospital jobs this was being phased out as it was felt that only either the person doing the procedure or someone competent to do so should be taking consent.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/09/2018 21:31

Outrageous this is legal in most of the US

Is it also legal to carry out genital and prostate examinations on unconscious male patients ? Hmm

Pooleschoolschoice · 21/09/2018 21:35

That is truly shocking :(

AdventuringThroughLife · 21/09/2018 21:42

Ive had a billion operartions in the uk. And still get traumatic flashbacks to the birth that landed me in intensive care. the staff had been amazing.

I cant imagine how much worse it would be going under knowing they really could and would do anything to you including sexually assault you :(

It was bad enough after a jaw op realising bits of my head hurt where they must have held my jaw open etc.

AngryAttackKittens · 21/09/2018 21:51

The medical profession has a pervasive attitude towards women's bodies that we're sort of fascinating alien specimens, and why would you attempt to talk to an alien when subjecting it to unwanted probing is so much more enlightening?

welshweasel · 21/09/2018 21:58

Completely unacceptable - it’s not been the case in the UK for about 20 years. I remember having to gain consent from patients undergoing gynae procedures when I was a med student and to be honest I didn’t think the practice was even that educational - a vaginal examination on a relaxed, unconscious patient doesn’t teach you much - you need the patient to be awake to understand the communication skills involved, how to elicit tenderness, what feels normal etc. Some med schools now use volunteers for students to practice intimate examinations on, which is a far more educational experience.

PimmsnLemonade · 21/09/2018 22:00

That's shocking. The more I learn, the more I realise how little respect our institutions and culture have for women.

gendercritter · 21/09/2018 22:17

That is absolutely disgusting

arranfan · 21/09/2018 22:32

I agree with PP, this used to be common practice in the UK. It was thought of as a good way of introducing students to carrying out pelvic exams without the worry of causing pain/distress. Because the patient was unconscious. And she'd never been asked to consent.

It was emphasised that they only did this to married women or those known to have had prior sexual experience.

So, obviously, that was fine.

Juells · 21/09/2018 22:34

This isn't something new, I remember reading an expose about it years ago - I thought it referred to the UK but I could be wrong. One example given was of a young woman, who hadn't ever had sex, who went in for a routine operation and afterwards had some severe infection vaginal infection. The explanation was "yes but medical students have to have the opportunity to do internal examinations, and women usually won't allow students to do them".

AngryAttackKittens · 21/09/2018 22:35

Just remember, ladies, once your vagina has been touched by one man it's open to all comers going forward. Your opinion on this is irrelevant.

frogintheTyne · 21/09/2018 22:42

This is horrendous. Sickening.

SpaceDinosaur · 21/09/2018 22:44

This is utterly foul.

HomeStar · 21/09/2018 22:44

oh my god. I've been lurking for a while but this thread made me so angry I had to unlurk.

I'm guessing no one ever performed "practice" prostate exams on unconsenting unconscious men?