Would you exclude a transman from female spaces?

[scotsheather]

The issue of trans mtf in female specific spaces has understandably become an emotive issue and we know our concerns are being brushed aside (mostly by men) whether or not these have had any physical changes to their body. What about the reverse, a transman who is biologically female and in truth always will be, visually very manly, man voice, years on testosterone and possibly more muscular than the average woman, flat chest and fake penis. Would you also exclude them from say female refuges, prisons, sports (if the steroid use doesn't disqualify them) communal changing rooms. I wouldn't personally as I believe in biology over all else. Others?

You believe in biology? Thats rather at odds with the rest of the statement. What do you mean about biology trumps all?

Do you believe humans can change sex?

Do you think a transman would be safe in a male prison?

Do you think a woman taking testosterone develops the skeletal structure, VOmax and strength of a man?

I think you two actually agree with each other?

Do you believe humans can change sex?
No

Do you think a transman would be safe in a male prison?
No

Do you think a woman taking testosterone develops the skeletal structure, VOmax and strength of a man?
No, though probably some above average for a female.

But thats not really the question. I was really thinking how other women would feel, find them triggering even if in reality they are not a man, etc.

And it shows up the TRA arguments of look, sound, quack etc. over basic biology.

No, people of the female sex should be welcome in sex-segregated female spaces

Although they'd have to be prepared to put up with being challenged a lot if they passed as male

I wouldn't but it depends on how far into treatment they are whether I would notice anyway.

I do think that political parties should clarify their stance on prisons though. If they spelled out that they think transmen are men and if convicted of a crime they should be sent to a male prison it might help.

I wouldn't exclude them personally but being realistic of the ones that have had years of testosterone therapy many do pass fairly convincingly so it's likely they would be challenged at least on first sight.

I would rather women and girls be able to question a transman in intimate spaces than it be the norm to let all spaces be mixed sex.

Transman I assume would be unhappy with that but if they do pass convincingly I expect they would probably just use the mens room if they felt safe to do so and it's not like they pose a significant risk to the other men in there.

Although I do think men have a right to privacy from the opposite sex too when using facilities but it's up to men to speak out on that issue should they feel strongly about it.

For those TM that aren't happy with either option a third neutral space (not the disabled facilities) would be a compromise.

The lack of validation may be a problem for women who identify as men.

Legally they should be entitled to all services offered to females, under the same conditions as females.

That means they've recused themselves from female sports by doping with testosterone. So be it. Choice was made, live with that.

I would say that great sensitivity is required for the refuge situation. A woman who has electively done everything in her power to transform her physical appearance into that of a male will potentially cause great distress to rape survivors. Accomodating her must not come at the expense of other vulnerable women.

As a pp said, if she genuinely passes as a man she may choose to use the men's facilities. That's up to her and the men she's imposing on. The risk they face from a subset of women in their spaces is entirely different from the risk women face with a subset of men, so they may as a class not have issues with it.

I would support their right to say no though.

No, I wouldn't exclude from a female space. Wouldn't be happy competing against the person in sport if they were taking testostorone but that is another issue.

Transmen who are biologically female are welcome in female spaces. They may pass in photos but not in RL in my experience.

people who do weird stuff with dog shit should be on a section in solitary confinement

That depends. Transmen who have been taking testosterone, unlike transwomen, can pass very well. In any situation where the presence of males would distress females transmen should be excluded. In a situation where it was certain this was not an issue they could be included.

Legally they should be entitled to all services offered to females, under the same conditions as females.

That means they've recused themselves from female sports by doping with testosterone. So be it. Choice was made, live with that.

As usual, Barracker nails it. Yes.

Depends on context. If I knew them as a transman, or someone introduced them to me a transman that would be fine. If I was in say, railway station toilets late at night and a TM (who passed) walked in, I would feel threatened. So, pragmatically, it does come down to familiarity/passing.

In many contexts, yes. Because the risk comes from penises, not from people with beards, and I believe in the rights and protections for people who are biologically female and celebrate their ignoring gender stereotypes, however masculine they choose to present.

However if you change your body appearance to the point where it causes confusion there are going to be some sensitive contexts where you need to be prepared to explain and potentially where women only facilities are not going to work for all women, and that includes transmen who don't want to use womens facilities. This is where dignity, privacy, equality and safety for all means providing third options for changing, bathrooms, etc.

Interesting question. I wonder if their prior socialisation, growing up as a woman, would mean that they would retain an understanding of the concerns of women about their spaces. Would they default to a learnt expected female behaviour and explain/ apologise their presence if it could seem inappropriate to the women there ? Or whether the application of testosterone and their new male behaviour patterns/roles would overrule that ?

I would be alarmed at first sight, certainly.

As far as I can see, there wouldn't be a problem, unless they seriously looked manly, especially if they are tall and muscley. Then they can use the men's spaces. Their choice.
A prosthetic penis poses no threat to women and most trans men have nothing in their trousers anyway.
I would be more concerned about prolonged, use of testosterone causing unusually aggressiveness.

Transmen can use women only spaces, but since through their own actions they have masculinised their appearance they should be prepared to be challenged at times.

www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Buck+Angel+Steve+Callum+2018+XBIZ+Awards+Ytzf8WcSDPcl.jpg

Buck angel is often touted as the archetypal 'manly looking' transman who would be terrifying in a woman's bathroom but if you look at photos of Buck next to actual men Buck looks tiny. Transmen do tend to 'pass' better than transwomen but they don't, not really

archive.digitalmcgyver.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/scott-spears-buck-angel-michael-brandon-stockholm-pride.jpg

Buck and some more men (not NSFW but an image of men at Pride so use judgement if your workplace is very conservative!)

I'm all for third and even fourth spaces. If a trans man passes for male then as a rape survivor, I'm going to freak and have a major panic attack or relapse at being naked in a female space with a trans man. I can tell you now that I wouldn't be asking "excuse me, but do you have a working penis and testicles because I don't want to share this space with you if you have".
No one is going to be thinking like this in the cold hard reality of being naked in a changing room alone with a trans man and we are kidding ourselves if this is what is being suggested. It's not even in our culture to behave like this, let alone risk being assaulted for asking or challenging.

I'm certainly not in the confident position of challenging anyone who appears to be male in my space. I'd be triggering into fligjt/fight/freeze response.
I'd be thinking "oh my god im going to be raped again" or "he could kill me" and I would not be able to politely ask anyone anything. I'd likely to suffer a relapse of PTSD because of it.

1 in 4 of women have been raped at least once and I'm sure I'm not the only one with this concern.

Trans people need their own spaces. Disabled people had to fight for their own space. This is no different. It's really not womens problem and I'm not ok with this at all.

1 in 4 of women have been raped at least once and I'm sure I'm not the only one with this concern.

You're not. It doesn't matter if a 'majority' of women are thrilled about self ID, if there are women who will not be able to use women's spaces as a result of self ID, then self ID into women's spaces isn't an acceptable solution. Another needs to be found.

Trans people need their own spaces. Disabled people had to fight for their own space. This is no different. It's really not womens problem and I'm not ok with this at all.

Well said. Neither am I.

From what I can gather, most FtM have so deeply rejected being female, and express such deep misogyny that serves to further distance themselves from their femaleness, that the issue is unlikely to arise to any significant degree. You only have to listen to those like Stephen Whittle, Sam Feeney, Brynn Tannehill and the crew at Gendered Intelligence to sense how deep their rejection of being female is.

The ones I've come across have been very aggressive and anti-women.

Transmen pass a lot better than the other way. They've no need to use female spaces. Are the men objecting to females in their spaces?