Would you exclude a transman from female spaces?

[scotsheather]

The issue of trans mtf in female specific spaces has understandably become an emotive issue and we know our concerns are being brushed aside (mostly by men) whether or not these have had any physical changes to their body. What about the reverse, a transman who is biologically female and in truth always will be, visually very manly, man voice, years on testosterone and possibly more muscular than the average woman, flat chest and fake penis. Would you also exclude them from say female refuges, prisons, sports (if the steroid use doesn't disqualify them) communal changing rooms. I wouldn't personally as I believe in biology over all else. Others?

Perhaps there are just some spheres that - for now at least - remain closed to trans men and women? Things that require a greater than normal level of intimacy with services users, such as a doctor but also a beauty therapist and masseur

If I ask for a female gynaecologist and am confronted with a transman, that would make what is - for me - an already traumatic situation worse, so I would hope that professionals working in these fields would recognise this

Transmen exclude themselves. In fact they get very cross when we say they are included in our feminism.

I'm addition, research shows they have a sexual and violent crime pattern higher than other females.

Any 'passing' transman who seeks to use female spaces when they would go unnoticed in men's spaces would be very unusual, I think, and could even be deliberately making some kind of mischievous point. As in: 'well you wanted female spaces so I'm here (even tho I could just as safely use the mens')

Toilets, no.

Domestic violence shelters, no.

No issues at all.

Professional sports are another matter. Taking testosterone would be doping if they weren't transitioning; it's still doping if they are.

Are the men objecting to females in their spaces?

Swimming pools maybe. Toilets, not so much. They probably don't notice. It's not like they make eye contact with each other.

I don't get it. Are we being asked to include transmen, who don't want to be in our spaces, to make some kind of point?
Option a: include men who call themselves women
Option b: include women who look like men and don't want to be there anyway
Also, I second the PP who said transmen don't pass in person. I notice them more because I notice masculine women as women (being one myself) and often get filthy looks from transmen who I've "clocked". I guess most straight people wouldn't give a short beardy bloke with wide hips a second glance, so it must be annoying for them to be noticed.
I don't mean for that to sound hostile, and it isn't meant that way; I've got nothing against transmen in particular. Some of them are pretty misogynistic but by no means all.

If they pass then they are fine to use men's spaces. They can't put men at risk in the same way that transwomen can put women at risk.
If they don't pass, they are fine to use women's spaces.
They can't take part in women's sport if they have taken testosterone.

I don't hear transmen clamouring to have access to female spaces. I can only assume they don't want access to female spaces because they are happy to pass as male?

Regardless of what testosterone transmen take, they don't seem to develop the body mass, strength or height of natal males anyway so I doubt they would pose a threat to natal women in the way that transwomen could.

Agree, as usual, Barracker nails it. Yes.

Also agree with OlennasWimple.

I've never met a transman. I'm genuinely curious to know how they would feel, showering in public gym communal showers or god forbid they ended up in jail with men. Do they feel safe among men? (Talking about pre-op transmen)
Be great to have their take on all this. They're so, so quiet in all this.

Having represented two guys in court who not only passed looked and sounded no differently to any bloke , pre GRA 2004

Both were convicted and taken initially to Holloway (female jail ) both were refused admission by the prison Dr and transferred and served their sentences in two different male jails ,without any issues or anyone other than the Prison Governor and the prison Dr Finding out

I am aware of a couple of women with the opposite pasts , who served jail terms in female jails again pre GRA 2004 without any issues or anyone finding out

just because it isn't reported in the papers don't think , it hasn't or doesn't happen

foxyliz26 that's a really interesting insight. And yes there are probably untold numbers of similar cases like that.

I think the recent influx of cases where a transgender prisoner with a rape or violence against women conviction ends up in a womens prison is the major concern many people have. And rightly so. I feel that these cases have been looked at with bias and haven't had the proper risk assessments done.

I should point out the two men I represented , it didn't come out in court, ( and I was/am bound by client confidentiality still )

some of you may not like the way I show professionalism to all my clients , past and present

and as I have said a number of our friends ,are just men and women end of

but there is a great difference between the old school folks , and these activists and AGP Transgender people
the latter my G/F and I have actually ejected from female loos ,

The transman I know became very threatening and read male in her aggression towards me after transition..so yes ? I mean, I feel when you make an individual choice to reject females and your own femaleness, you've kind of excluded yourself from female spaces anyway.

I think she should have access to medical care for females, obviously.

I don't know why the woke always bring this up at a gotcha. Transmen generally wish to use male spaces; that's between them and men.

he transman I know became very threatening and read male in her aggression towards me after transition..so yes ? I mean, I feel when you make an individual choice to reject females and your own femaleness, you've kind of excluded yourself from female spaces anyway

That's how I feel and for the same reason.

Foxyliz

I generally try to take posters at face value but I'm struggling to believe your claim. I don't wish to be rude but I'm afraid without evidence your story of females in a male prison and males in a female prison pre GRA seems so unlikely.

Not to mention that you've represented FOUR transgender criminals (or just two? Wasn't clear) who have served their time in the opposite sex jail despite their legal sex being clear?

I also don't understand why you feel confidentiality has any bearing. If this was pre GRA, actual sex was a matter of legal record. Documents would reflect that?

Barracker. As am I.

In theory, I’d like transmen (female-bodied people) to have the protection offered by sex-segregated spaces (on account of their female bodies), but in reality, I worry about how this compromises female people’s, especially girls’, ability to keep themselves safe because of the uncertainty it introduces.