If I argue transwomen are men is this an extremist position?

[DJLippy]

In my opinion this should not be viewed as an extremist position.

I think there is a humane argument to be made for this.

For example. I want transwomen to be protected from violence and prejudice but I think the best way forward is by recognising transowmen are still male. You can play with words but at the end of the day - saying transwomen are male - what you mean is the same. Let's be honest and stake our ground.

I don't know if the TW I am sharing an intimate space with has a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. I don't know if they have a penis. I don't know how I am supposed to tell the difference between a male with bad intentions or a transexual who just wants to pee in peace. I can't inspect genitals. I can't ask to see a GRC.

I actually think the demand to remove your genitals to gain entry into the club male/female club is barbaric.

Can we make a more human argument from such a position? The idea that some male born people can be considered women but some male born people cannot seems so difficult to manage. Who decides that? What criteria do they use? How are women supposed to tell the difference between 'good' and 'bad' trans.

I am not being goady. I genuinely want to hear what people have to say please take this post with the good intention it was intended.

The truth is the truth. Speaking the truth may be considered extreme in times when people prefer to hear lies. So be it.

Yes. I've come to realise almost every adult does know what the truth is. Children, maybe not so much, depending on whether their school has been allowing unscientific training /indoctrination to take place.

So what are people's reasons for refusing to speak the truth? I can only speculate really. For me it's plain fear of never being able to work again (I don't lie mind you, I am tactically silent).

Interesting to think of the outcomes of all this as they currently are. Many women now unable to vote for lib dem /Labour /greens. Many women less hospitable to genuine transsexuals who were previously welcomed in their spaces. Many women shrinking back from taking part in some aspects of public life. Environment becoming more hostile to gay people, especially lesbians.

Ooh I know its the wrong thread but can I take Tom Farr to the feminist utopia? To go in one of the nice cages?

He just ripped little Owen Jones a new one

He did! And the conversation between Janice Turner and the Morph that inspired it is also a sight to behold.

I don't know how I am supposed to tell the difference between a male with bad intentions or a transexual who just wants to pee in peace. I can't inspect genitals. I can't ask to see a GRC.

To be honest if you accept you can't inspect anybody's genitals who you might be sharing a loo with, I'd be interested to know how you'd expect to know how anyone was trans at all, let alone which were the "good" and the "bad" ones.

And even if trans women are more readily identified, do you think you'd know the difference between a trans man and an actual man? One would be using the same loos as you. What about a mid-transition trans man and a mid transition trans woman? Totally sure you'd nail the difference as you pass each other in the corridor?

I think this idea that anyone would be put upon to correctly identify "good" and "bad" trans is totally taking for granted the fact that a lot of people aren't especially good at, or even remotely invested in spotting the difference between trans and not trans at all.

Because most toilets in the UK are perfectly safe and, in the grand scheme of things, no more somewhere you need to be on high alert than if you're walking down a reasonably quiet street in the middle of the day. Whilst you can't be completely safe anywhere, no matter what sex you are, 99% of public toilets are not far from the safest anyone can expect to be when going about their business in this country. Yes, even women.

And the situation where one might be even a little invested in spotting good and bad (secluded petrol station, unmanned, toilets out the back of the building, middle of the night, no cameras...) you're likely going to consider absolutely anyone else around with extreme suspicion, be them man, woman or anything else!

(Note: I'm talking specifically about toilets because you write about peeing in your OP)

Everyone knows that TW are men. We need to absolutely stop using female pronouns for them (unless we wish to as a courtesy) Where did this notion that someone can demand to be called certain pronouns come from? It is so childish. Grown ups can treat trans people with respect by using using 'they' rather than 'she.' This pandering to a minorities unreasonable demands are causing more confusion. I'm happy to accept a chap is trans, but they will never be a woman.

TW are men and no men, regardless of identity, medication, surgery or personality, belongs in women's spaces.

None of them.

TW are men and no men, regardless of identity, medication, surgery or personality, belongs in women's spaces.

None of them.

Ever.

That Tom Farr thread is brilliant. Didn't he write that superb piece on Medium?

Tom Farr is fantastic- his casual use of the word “hootenanny” is a style of writing I can only ever dream of employing.

He’s definitely worth a follow- he knows what he’s talking about, and does it passionately.

I suppose it'll be portrayed as extremist by association - 'David Davies MP and these Christian groups agree with you so that necessarily makes your view extremist' - not realising how such an approach only underlines the divide between them and groups such as women and lesbians who they're supposed to be supporting.

As a separate point, I think some of the unlikely alliances thrown up by the whole Trans debate (such as Hands Across the Aisle) can only be a good thing - it's as if the adults are coming together in an effort to work things out. The Shriekers shall not inherit the Earth!

I was shocked a couple of months ago when a senior LibDem politician described a certain TW on Twitter as one of the most reasonable voices in this campaign.

During the same conversation, said TW stated anyone who doesn’t believe TW are W is transphobic.

To me THAT is an extremist view. I’m sure most doctors are, by that definition, transphobic, In my experience, almost nobody believes that statement to be literally true.

That this otherwise sane and rational politician could describe said TW that way demonstrated how skewed those close to this have become.

Your view is not extremist OP. I believe most of the general population agree with you. Just because certain voices are loud enough to drown out more rational voices doesn’t mean the opinions they hold are correct or popular.

Angels

2. A female born woman can't be a transwoman therefore transwomen aren't women

Not necessarily in logic. In the same way that all labradors are dogs, but not all dogs are labradors. One is a subcategory of the other, and you can't subcategorise them the other way round.

However, that is contingent on categorising them correctly in the first place. The transwoman/woman distinction falls into the same category error of the seahorses/horses distinction... there is a small overlap in terms of linguistic usage (common words horse or woman) and a general superficial cosmetic likeness. Taxonomy is rightly based on biological differences, not superficial similarities.

Apologies for the error. Yes a gelding is a stallion without it's junk.

Glad you all understood my meaning though.

And there are only male and female dogs too. Male Labradors and female Labradors. They can do the exact same work, behave in identical ways to each other. The only difference is one produces sperm and the other eggs.
Same with humans.

I am coming to the conclusion that TRAs and handmaidens believe that sexual dimorphism exists in all animals except humans.

Or perhaps they believe that animals can be trans, too.

No, Rat I'm not even remotely invested in spotting the difference between trans and not trans. I am invested in spotting the difference between male and female. Because that is the difference that matters, not how they present themselves.

I agree that it is barbaric to expect emasculation and castration as a condition of admitting males into female spaces. But it is also illogical: it does not make transform them into women.

Anyway, it's not my problem to solve. if transwomen are in danger in male spaces, then the problem is male violence. Transmen are not in any danger in female spaces.

Transmen are not in any danger in female spaces.

True. I would not blink an eye about a transman in women's spaces as they are women.

I worry that women will avoid smear tests and mammograms, and men prostate checks if doctors records show sex of choice. If the law changes so that you can't ask if they were a always man or woman, the doctor won't risk making a call by observing them then inviting them in for a sex related check up. Or if they genuinely fool themselves into believing that their 'opposite sex' brain will ward off ovarian cancer?

Terfsup personally I don't mind a transman in a female changing room, but I do think its unsettling for children. I swim a lot, as does my daughter, often the one family changing room is in use, the rest of the space is open plan, so we change there. I know she would feel it strange if someone with a beard & dressed as a man, got changed in the same space as us. For this reason I think a 3rd gender neutral space is needed as well as the sex segregated ones imho.

Terfsup personally I don't mind a transman in a female changing room, but I do think its unsettling for children.

Point taken. I don't have children so it's not an issue that I've been exposed to.

Of course men who identify as women are men. Nothing extremist about that, DJLippy.

We're in an unprecedented situation here. Politicians and public bodies are insisting TWAW and we see women on FWR saying they can't say different or they will never work again. I'm assuming they work in the public sector. Must be grim.

But out in everyday life, very few people think people can change sex. Indeed when I talk to people who don't know what's going on they don't even believe it's possible at first. They think I must have got my wires crossed.

That poll that found only 18% supported Self-ID wasn't surprising. Most people (and I'd guess a lot of parents) don't think women can have a penis, though to be fair you do get a number of kids and uneducated people think that actual sex change operations are possible.

The horse thing? No one removes a horse's penis. They remove its balls, after which it's known as a gelding.

Why don't they just realise that men can be feminine? Not exactly news. But a man can't be a woman, nor should the definition of a woman be altered to accommodate him and his wants. That's just bloody silly.

And since I am on day a million of a period that reminds me of the corridor scene from the shining, trust me, if I thought for one second that I could just call myself Roger, claw my imaginary balls and take up DIY then I'd be up for it.

Not all geldings are actually geldings, as the sudden appearance of a foal proved.

Meanwhile, back on topic, saying transwomen are men is true and thus should not be extremist. They will always be men. Really don't understand how anyone can think otherwise as it is simple biology.

But they want it to be true.

And if you wish really really really hard on a falling star, or when you blown out your birthday candles, hey presto, just like Pinoccio, you can be a real girl, by Jimminy!

I think some people never heard the word 'no' when they were little...

"Well even taking emasculation=unmanning literally, still doesn’t make an emasculated male a woman. It makes them an emasculated male"

An un-man...