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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

I’m firmly pro-choice but...

126 replies

Banana8080 · 17/09/2018 08:59

....I’m not ok with gender selection abortion ie girls.

But if I’m pro-choice then I shouldn’t be interested in motives at all... argh! I don’t know how to reconcile this with myself.

Labour announced today they’d stop early gender blood tests which prompted this post.

OP posts:
brookshelley · 17/09/2018 09:05

It's only termination for girls that bothers you?

NataliaOsipova · 17/09/2018 09:07

I don't think you can be "firmly pro choice but....". It's a bit like freedom of speech and the whole "I may hate what you say but I'll die for your right to say it" thing. I may hate another woman's reason for choosing an abortion, but I still believe - in all circumstances- that she has the right to choose it.

QuizteamBleakley · 17/09/2018 09:08

I think I understand where you're coming from. A woman choosing to have an abortion for reasons that you 'agree' with (e.g. financial, relationship status, wrong time in life, accidental contraception fail etc) is a world away from aborting due to societal / religious expectations.

Lexilooo · 17/09/2018 09:09

Labour didn't say they would stop the test, it is important screening for genetic abnormalities. They said they would prevent the parents from being told the sex of the child following this test as it could lead to abortions.

Gender has nothing to do with it. Gender is a social construct. A bunch of cells can't decide whether it likes pink or blue or wearing dresses.

iamawoman · 17/09/2018 09:12

Sex test, not gender test! Women we need to stop using the word gender when we mean sex

Imnobody4 · 17/09/2018 09:15

Yes I have this problem. My feeling is that sex selective abortion has social consequences that affect everyone not just the woman. It can and does produce unbalanced societies like China and India with negative effects. I don't believe freedom of choice can ever be absolute. And yes I'd say the same if there was a deep seated prejudice against boys but there isn't. But I'm still queasy about it.

NotBadConsidering · 17/09/2018 09:17

The press association article frequently uses sex and gender as interchangeable, even in successive sentences. The level of incompetence in this is astounding:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/17/labour-calls-for-ban-on-early-foetus-gender-test

YeTalkShiteHen · 17/09/2018 09:17

I think sex selection termination is entirely different to seeking a termination for any other reason.

I wouldn’t use it as a reason to protest terminations, because I am pro choice.

I’m very, very uncomfortable with the concept of particular genitals being a reason to terminate a pregnancy.

However, I stand by a woman’s right to choose and have access to safe, non judgemental terminations with proper aftercare. That is non negotiable.

steppemum · 17/09/2018 09:19

I have always thought that the abortion debate suffered massively from being so black and white.
You are only 'allowed' to be 100% pro choice no questions asked. If not you are damning women's rights.

It is interesting because we don;t do the same in other situations.

I am happy to say that if you have an affair with someone who is married that is a shitty thing to do. So I also feel that aborting a child because you (for example) have never got round to bothering about contraception is also a shitty thing to do. (and I don't mean women who have no access to contraception)

So I think aborting a child because of its sex is rubbish and I'm not happy with it.
Perhaps I should say that I used to live in a country where women used abortion as a form of contraception, and some women had had 15-20 abortions.

So, like the freedom of speech argument - I defend to the death your right to be obnoxious, but in reality we have laws against hate speech and inciting violence, so we don't actually believe that total free speech is good. So I think you can say as a society we believe in principle in abortion, but that in reality we want some parameters.
Is that such a bad thing?

YeTalkShiteHen · 17/09/2018 09:21

steppemum I see what you’re saying, it makes sense to me.

Some reasons that some women seek abortions wouldn’t sit right with me. I’d never tell them that, it’s not my right to.

I’m just not sure how you’d put parameters in without risking women not being able to speak up in times of need if that makes any sense?

We already have hate mobs outside women’s clinics.

littlbrowndog · 17/09/2018 09:23

It’s on the Victoria Derbyshire show now

littlbrowndog · 17/09/2018 09:25

Seems like some women are abused and being forced into abortion because they ar3 having a girl

jellyfrizz · 17/09/2018 09:25

I think sex selection termination is entirely different to seeking a termination for any other reason.

I agree - the woman is not making a free choice, they have been coerced by the misogynist culture around them.

TwistedStitch · 17/09/2018 09:28

I'm pro choice but I don't agree with abortions based on sex either. I support abortion for women who don't want to be pregnant, not who don't want to be pregnant with a specific sex. IMO attempting to conceive when you know there is a 50% chance you will decide to reject that baby is an awful thing to do.

YeTalkShiteHen · 17/09/2018 09:28

I agree - the woman is not making a free choice, they have been coerced by the misogynist culture around them

I agree

YeTalkShiteHen · 17/09/2018 09:29

Seems like some women are abused and being forced into abortion because they ar3 having a girl

This too

MsPavlichenko · 17/09/2018 09:31

steppermum You are " allowed " any position you want on abortion. The problem is when you, or anyone else imposes that postion on other women by limiting access to safe abortion.

And no oneaborts a baby by the way. An unwanted pregnancy is terminated.

FloralBunting · 17/09/2018 09:41

I think this is an interesting thing to view from the pro life perspective. The framing of the objection is a bit bloody weird, especially the VD film.

We're ok with abortion for financial difficulty, or even just simply 'I don't want a baby'. We're ok with a termination for reasons we agree with. But as soon as sex selection comes up, it all gets muddy - because abortion support is all about women's rights, and aborting girls because they are girls is patently an anti-woman idea.

But the VD film made me really, really uncomfortable because of the focus on Asian communities. It's so bloody paternalistic. There was some mention of violent coercion, but mostly the Asian women were making decisions about abortions with the same level of freedom as the 'western' women who choose for other reasons.

Like I say, I'm pro life, so I guess I have a slight remove from this, it feels like an internal dispute between pro choicers.

I just think there's a massive amount of cognitive dissonance in the middle ground. I respect the position that a woman has a right to choose, and if that is the case, then I don't see the discernable difference between choosing an abortion because a baby is not right for you in this stage in your career and choosing abortion because you desire to have a boy, not a girl.

Original poster
Banana8080 · 17/09/2018 09:42

I meant sex rather than gender... forgive me.

My issue is abortion on cultural/religious grounds that devalue female babies.

Thanks all, very thought provoking..

OP posts:
JillyArmeeen · 17/09/2018 09:45

Just seen this on Victoria Derbyshire.
The used the word gender about 100 times!! It's not gender it's sex. How can we even talk about this if we don't use the right words.
The doctor and the BBC journalist both used gender when they were talking about sex. So frustrating.

StealthPolarBear · 17/09/2018 09:46

At an individual level I am pro choice. Every individual woman who wants an abortion should have one.
At a population levels, there are factors that are negative. Eg while I support individual women to have late abortions, at a population level I'd hope levels were kept low. I'd want to change things so there were no sex selection abortions without impacting on the decisions of an already pregnant woman.

steppemum · 17/09/2018 09:46

The problem is when you, or anyone else imposes that position

and straight away someone wants to push the discussion into 'sides'

I have not imposed anything. What I have said is that for some reason we are not allowed to discuss the idea that abortion may have limits in the same way that free speech may have limits. What I would like to see is discussion. Proper honest discussion.

I agree that the issue would how you decide the limits.
We already have a thread full of people saying that they don't like abortion for sex. Is that a limit? Should we have that limit in law? Or is that putting too much of an imposition on women?

How do we decide that limiting sex abortions is protecting the women, whereas limiting other types of abortion is freedom for women?

NataliaOsipova · 17/09/2018 09:48

So I think you can say as a society we believe in principle in abortion, but that in reality we want some parameters.
Is that such a bad thing?

I think it is a bad thing - because those "parameters" limit a woman's bodily autonomy. And we do not do this in any other circumstance. At no other time would anybody else's putative right to life come before another's right to say what happens to their body. For example - if you need a blood transfusion, you have no right to force your mother to give one to you, even if your life depends on it. Can we all judge your mother as selfish/awful etc if she refuses to give blood to you? Sure. But we'd have no right to pin her down forceably and take it - and no court in the land would allow this.

I think it is black and white. Even when it's not nice/something we wish didn't happen.

steppemum · 17/09/2018 09:49

and I agree with others that the logical end point of saying abortion should be available on demand is that we should allow abortion of girls.

But somehow we are not comfortable with that. And that should open up a discussion about why.

TheDowagerCuntess · 17/09/2018 09:50

IMO attempting to conceive when you know there is a 50% chance you will decide to reject that baby is an awful thing to do.

But it still boils down to the same thing - which is forcing a woman to have a baby she categorically does not want, is not good for her, and it's not good for the baby.

I am uncomfortable with sex-selection abortion, but I'm more uncomfortable with forcing a woman to continue with a pregnant she does not want, and I'm more uncomfortable with removing choice and forcing my opinions and beliefs onto other women, with life-altering consequences.

It's not my right to do that, however much random old me might find another woman's choices unpalatable. Her body, her choice.