I’m firmly pro-choice but...

[Banana8080]

....I’m not ok with gender selection abortion ie girls.

But if I’m pro-choice then I shouldn’t be interested in motives at all... argh! I don’t know how to reconcile this with myself.

Labour announced today they’d stop early gender blood tests which prompted this post.

I think anyone should be allowed to become not-pregnant for any reason at all. We shouldn't need any reason than "I don't want to be pregnant right now".

If people having abortions for a particular reason is upsetting, we should address the reason why they need one, not stop the individual from having one.
Did they never want to be pregnant in the first place? What can we do to help prevent unwanted pregnancies?
Do they want a baby but only feel able to continue in certain circumstances? What can we do about that?

I agree with @StealthPolarBear that "I'd want to change things so there were no sex selection abortions without impacting on the decisions of an already pregnant woman."

My position is that sex-related abortion is a sensible option for a very small number of diseases which are firmly sex-linked (and we may become aware of more in future). Not necessarily the X or Y chromosomes at fault (I am not advocating for the abortion of intersex people!) but disorders which manifest in a particular sex and are devastating. If you and your partner are both carriers, for example, you may know that a particular sex foetus may not survive. So it would seem sensible to keep the screening and option open for these cases, closely regulated with genetic counselling provided.

In general here I'm talking about wanted pregnancies which are discovered to have a foetus with a genetic malfunction, not unwanted pregnancies. Currently I don't think sex-selective abortion should be available in any case other than as described above - I can't see a reason for it that doesn't trace back to misogyny one way or another.

Yes I have this problem. My feeling is that sex selective abortion has social consequences that affect everyone not just the woman.

But the person potentially affected most is the child that results from an unwanted pregnancy.

In India it isn't the rich people having abortions, it is the poor. They also practice infanticide.

Raising women out of poverty so they are able to support their children and having access to contraception reduces the numbers of abortions. Also free education for girls makes them less of a burden and results in families having fewer children, their one or two educated daughters can look after them better than 6 uneducated sons.

China is slightly different. There are parts of China where the one child rule does not apply. Adults who were themselves only children can now have two children.

Again rich people can just pay the fine and have as many children as they want.

Chinese orphanages are full of baby girls and children with disabilities. The are not entitled to special medical care so those with disabilities are often left out of activities or transferred to care facilities for older people.

At 14 they are too old to be adopted so either go to an elderly care home or find a job.

Personally I don't see life on the streets in India or in a Chinese orphanage as much better than not existing.

I agree with what you are saying Dowager, the difficulty I have is that this is a woman who has actively tried to conceive and wants to be pregnant and wants a baby- just one with a slightly different set of characteristics. To me that is into designer baby territory. I don't think the answer is to force women to have a baby they don't want but I also don't believe our health system and laws should provide the tests etc to facilitate this choice except in cases where it is necessary for genetic testing.

I think that the proposal is unworkable - it will only lead to "back street" blood tests.

the woman is not making a free choice, they have been coerced by the misogynist culture around them

Yes.
Sex-selected abortions are a symptom, not the disease.

I don't know what the answer is on this one, tbh. Fix society first (yeah, I know) and meanwhile stop blaming women for 'choices' they're forced into, I guess.

It's not a choice though made freely. It is a symptom of the misogyny that exists in patriarchal systems. It reflects badly upon the systemic abuse of women and girls.

Personally, I think it's the wrong way to approach it. Prevention is so much better than the cure, but cures are required and needed.

And it's sex not gender. No woman can successfully change their gender.

I have no problem with being pro choice and anti misogyny. Sex selection is a misogynistic reason for an abortion.

A woman that has an abortion because she is carrying a girl has bigger problems than an unwanted pregnancy.

Exactly errol

And yes, being flippant how do they know what gender they're having? No scan can tell you that. They could just tell an xx child she's a boy and all would be fine, right?

they cant stop early sex blood tests....?!!? that would be impossible. They may be able to stop testing just for the sex but when you get the harmony test or similar part of the things they test for involve chromosome disorders so you can clearly see on the test results which sex the fetus is. They would not be able to stop that unless they stop people testing for these conditions which would be completely unethical.

RE the sex selection: Banning abortion based on sex does not actually help anyone and places women at risk. In some cultures there is so much pressure put on a woman to have a male child first that she might be abused or rejected by her family if she does not. She may turn to unsafe methods or abortion or she may face threat of violence, be cast out and unable to care for herself and the baby....
Abortions should be given to absolutely any woman who wants one for any reason for free and without question imo.....
If you want to tackle sex selection abortion it needs to be done on a deeper level by talking to women and offering them practical support... not preventing them from accessing medical care

plus ça change :( As a child I was upset and confused when I read (in an ancient encyclopedia) that there was a day of mourning in a Turkish family if a girl baby was born. My father reassured me that it was something that only happened hundreds of years ago in weird societies. Doesn't have to happen now, they'd be aborted.

Many girls missing ;(

It's obviously unfathomable to people. Either you need an abortion or you don't. The idea you abort girls and not boys seems so wrong BUT...I am fortunate to know my dd will never have to have her genitals sliced off. That she can go to school and get a job and won't he married off to a man 4 times her age and die in childbirth.

Society is by no means even for girls there will he struggles the whole time.

But I don't think I can say that if I knew my dd was in danger of these horrific things. If I knew my husband wluld name me jave baby after bay after baby til I had a boy. If I knew I would receive abuse and beatings and my dds would be he killed at birth for being girls, that I wouldn't think about whether I should have her.

We need to combat the reasons behind why. Not be angry or disgusted at the women who may not have a choice.

But I don't think I can say that if I knew my dd was in danger of these horrific things. If I knew my husband wluld name me jave baby after bay after baby til I had a boy. If I knew I would receive abuse and beatings and my dds would be he killed at birth for being girls, that I wouldn't think about whether I should have her.

Yes, very good points unfortunately.

Am not angry or disgusted at the women just sad that they are being co erred into something they don’t want to do

'here was some mention of violent coercion, but mostly the Asian women were making decisions about abortions with the same level of freedom as the 'western' women who choose for other reasons'

Are the women making decisions based in freedom of choice though? or is it that they have been brainwashed from birth into a culture that values males above females and thus are making a decision based on internalised misogynistic values.

I am pro choice but do not agree in principle that to terminate a pregnancy because of sex(usually female) is something that should be happening, as it is misogyny of the highest form. However individually, the outcome is still a terminated pregnancy whether the reason it is carried out because the women does not feel that she can financially, emotionaly, practically have a baby at this point in life. This choice should never be taken away from a woman. The forces that compel women to terminate a female foetus, should be tackled

controlling women through denying them access to medical care to tackle misogyny.... great

Not RTFT

The cultures / societies that have boy preferernce (all of them to a greater or lesser extent probably) need to change.

Putting it on individual women is not the right answer.

What life will a girl have coming into a family that don't want girls / think they are of no worth etc?

Restricting abortion isn't the answer. As soon as you say this reason is OK that is not you are on a slippery slope.

Even if you don't agree with the reaosns. And it is like punishing women for being born into certian societies / cultures somehow.

Stopping the abortions won't change anything, Girls will still be undervalued / and there will be more undervalued girls.

Just heard this on the news. The level of crap and confusion is amazing. They talk abouyt seeing gender on a scan and then tell us gender has nothing to do with genitals. They can't even maintain consistency but expect us to swallow this bullshit.

YY if it is gender selective abortion then that is no problem

You can't tell a child's gender until it is old enough to tell you / or shows a strong preference for blue and trains / or pink and dolls.

It is definitely illegal to kill a two year old when it reveal it's true internal gender.

I think they are talking about something else?

Oh yes SEX >> the cunty foetuses are aborted and arond the world when cunty babies are born it leads to material detrimental treatment EVEN IF at two they decide the like blue and play with a train...

"I'm firmly pro choice."
"No, not that choice."

Firstly, a belief that no woman should be forced by the state to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want, endure a birth she doesn't want, mother a child she doesn't want, is simply that.
I do not believe in forcing a woman to do these things because I have a higher agenda.

Secondly, the prospect of the state WITHHOLDING information about my own pregnancy to me so that I cannot give INFORMED consent is utterly chilling.

I do not care about the reasons ANY woman has for wanting an abortion. I am not the policer of the reasons she is allowed to have one, and it appalls me that anyone thinks it reasonable to try to manipulate or control a woman's choice and autonomy over her own bidy.

My body, my information, my choice.

It's astonishing that in the era of GDPR, where each of us understands that we are absolutely entitled to access any and all information held about us, however unimportant or trivial, that the Labour party should advocate witholding fundamental health information from a woman about her own pregnancy, lest she make an informed decision about her own body.

Labour are becoming more authoritarian and terrifying by the day. You will have those female babies, women, whether you wish it or not. For your own good. For the good of society.

Under his eye.
Blessed be the fruit
May the Lord Open.

Are the women making decisions based in freedom of choice though? or is it that they have been brainwashed from birth into a culture that values males above females and thus are making a decision based on internalised misogynistic values.

I don't think they're brainwashed, actually. They observe within their community/culture that girls and women get treated poorly, and they make the decision not to bring another little girl into that situation.

I find it laughable that banning women from being able to know their baby's sex in early pregnancy will lead to a dramatic improvement in women's rights in the communities that regularly practice this.

it is because they are using gender instead of sex polarbear. the words sometime mean the same thing and sometimes they dont -convenient for the tras as it muddies the water

This is a tricky issue. I think you can't be pro choice but....

It's also important to remember that for some women having a baby of the "wrong" sex could put her and any other children at risk. It's not always straightforward.

Op, I’m with you, although I see the issue.

For me abortion is there to protect a woman from abuse, financial and domestic control, and to protect the mother’s mental health & physical well being.
So if a woman is too young, too old, too poor, in an abusive relationship, has too much on her plate - too many other children, caring responsibilities, ill health etc or simply does not wish to be a mother, then abortion is there to allow her to live her life as she wishes.
But there is no difference I can see between raising a boy or a girl. The only reason I can see is the social pressure to produce a “male heir” which in UK law isn’t relevant since men & women can inherit, run companies etc. And is a form of abuse in itself.

But I’m open to being persuaded otherwise....