Discussing GC issues with DP.

[GreenGoblin0]

Long time lurker of this board although have been frequenting Twitter much more of late.

Have had some awful arguments with DP over the GRA consultation and over trans stuff generally. I find myself getting more and more angry about what is going on but he doesn't seem to understand. We don't really argue normally about anything.

For context we're both very left wing and usually agree on things politically. He gets some things (agrees Karen White shouldn't have been in women's prison, agrees womens sports are an issue) but I've tried to raise the GG and BG guidelines with him and he just doesn't seem to get it. He thinks it's parents that would have the issue and girls would just "accept" that trans girls are girls not boys so it's totally fine for them to share changing rooms and accommodation on overnight trips and also it's not the same as having "mixed sex" changing rooms because trans girls are girls and not boys. When i said it's a safeguarding issue he came up with the "that's what they said about gay ppl" line.

He also believes TWAW and so think I'm denying trans ppl exist when I say I don't agree with this.

Partly I think he doesn't understands the issues fully, struggling to find a way to get things across to him without it ending in an argument. Any ideas?

Ask him why he thinks that you - who are just as lefty and woke as he is - are not willing to accept that TWAW. Does he think you are ignorant or stupid; does he think you are a bigot; does he think (god help us) that's it's "cis privilege"? Or can he accept that when you say there are safeguarding issues and that women's rights are at risk you actually know more about this than he does and he should LISTEN to you.

If he cannot define gender and woman in a way that makes TWAW
more than just a right on slogan than he is showing himself to be someone who mouths right on slogans without thought.

Does he think that women are less oppressed and vulnerable than the people he works with and can be expected to budge over? If he is concerned about vulnerable people what about some concern for women in prison or shelters?
Does he realise how wide the trans umbrella is? Does he realise how many "trans women" are heterosexual males, only distinguishable from himself by a "feeling" they claim to have?

Does he realise how regressive it is, and how it threatens women's rights, to believe that woman = gender = femininity ? Does he accept that women are oppressed on the basis of their sex and not how they identify?

What does he mean when he says TWAW? Does he know?

Do you "shut off" when he "rants" about something that is important to him?

Ask him if he would ever self id as trans to go into the women's changing room.
When he says no ask him what kind of man would.
Is that a man he wants in the changing room with your daughters?

God, I used to think I was left wing until this issue came to light.

The TRAs are a men's right's movement in sheep's clothing. Graham Linehan calls it 'woke gamergate' because it's another example of the patriarchy pulling rank, but this time it's lefties who are desperate to be seen on the 'right' side of the argument.

Ask your DH about safeguarding procedures at his workplace, and how any of the scenarios thrown up fail every basic safeguarding test.

If he won't accept a woman's view that TW aren't W, maybe he'd listen to a TW?

quillette.com/2018/03/30/plea-trans-activists-can-protect-trans-rights-without-denying-biology/

I think he's right that lots of young trans-identifying people are vulnerable. Ask him if he believes that people labouring under a delusion - whatever the genesis of that delusion - should be allowed to dictate what happens to themselves to the extent that it damages them or other people.

They may as well be fully mixed, for a couple of reasons...

It’s now extremely difficult for women to challenge male bodied people in women’s changing rooms. The sort of men who exploit this are not decent and respectful of women’s boundaries. Trans women who say that they are female but have had absolutely no treatment are no less likely to be a threat to women than any other random man.

Also, in order to avoid issues, many locations think it’s easier to just make their facilities unisex.

Tell him to read this article by Johnny Best who used to run the 'Queer up North' event, but is now gender critical - as you can imagine in LGBT circles this has led to backlash.

Johnny has spoken how this is not the same as the fight for gay rights, which he has actively campaigned for for most of his adult life.

'But do you really think it’s plausible that huge numbers of ordinary women, who have been getting along just fine with trans women for years, have suddenly become foaming-mouthed bigots?

Of course that’s not the case.'

medium.com/@JonnnyBest/calling-all-gay-men-women-need-you-to-speak-up-please-read-this-9df277ecb59e

I've tried to raise the GG and BG guidelines with him
The GG issue also includes male born guide leaders. Find a picture of a random man (doesn't have to be trans) and ask your DP if he would happily wave his daughters off on a camping trip with that person. If he says yes if that person identifies as a transwoman then he may need to evaluate how he can be so influenced by a strangers, unverifiable internal feeling.

I'm fed up with explaining to beardy woke bros (with no dog in the fight as PP said) what the issues are. These males are the most infuriating to me.

Ask your DH why so many trans keep their cocks and balls. If I, as a woman, looked down and saw I had male genitalia I'd be horrified - surely they would be if they had genuine body dysphoria. But no, they love their penises.(sorry for rant OP but these beardy artisan hipster bros are always on Twitter claiming that TWAW. Go shag one then bro)

They probably watch trans porn and need TWAW to be true because then they don’t have to confront their internalised homophobia.

We assume they have no dog in the fight, but I’m beginning to realise it’s not true.

Totally off topic but have to share.

Dreamed I was at a feminist meeting. Having a great time. Then the speakers started getting all garbled. So I stood up and said I couldn't understand what they were saying. Others agreed. There was a minor kerfuffle as the panel started trying to find out what was going wrong.

At which point SwearyG came marching up to me and said in a super reasonable voice, "It's your dream. So you fix it."

At which point I woke up.

Ask him if a penis is a female organ.

Stickerladiesoftheworldunite wrote: If I, as a woman, looked down and saw I had male genitalia I'd be horrified - surely they would be if they had genuine body dysphoria. But no, they love their penises

This jumped out at me because of the body switch films.

The more usual one is where an adult and child end up in an inadvertent body swap.

I can think of films where the male protagonist 'was body-swapped to a female body and cue the comedy of being delighted to discover own breasts . E.g., Switch www.imdb.com/title/tt0103016/?ref_=ttls_li_tt
The Hot Chick www.imdb.com/title/tt0302640/?ref_=ttls_li_tt

Like you, outside unusual genres, I can't imagine a body swap film entering on how delighted, and how much fun the girl/woman intended to have with male genitalia. Definitely don't see that ending up in the usual family/comedy genres.

WHEN THEY HAVE NO DOG IN THIS FIGHT.

@FermatsTheorem but they do. Men supporting other men to make sure women stay in their place.

Follow the money, follow the motives...

Presumably your partner loves you and cares for you so why would they dismiss what you have to say? Do you do that if it’s the other way around?

There’s many a thread on mn about a vast range of topics that involve women asking how they can phrase something so their male partner can’t dismiss them or minimise the issue or ignore them because they’re nagging or ranting or whatever. If they could only find the right words or the correct evidence, they would be listened to and heard. Is it worth wasting your time to come up with a killer argument when it can be dismissed simply because you’re not a man?

*They probably watch trans porn and need TWAW to be true because then they don’t have to confront their internalised homophobia.

We assume they have no dog in the fight, but I’m beginning to realise it’s not true.*

Added to this as Betty suggested on another thread and I've suspected for a while myself, many of them may be under the edges of the trans umbrella as cross dressers for example.

"If I divorce you, which at this rate I might, would your newly single dating profile say TW welcome for sexy times? If not, why not?"

Is what I'd say.

Lang

My DH doesn't really understand why I am getting so worked up about this issue because 1. He's male 2. We have sons but no daughters 3. The proposed changes to the law will have zero impact on him

But.. what was a bit of a light bulb moment for him was when I said 'what about if your mum needed intimate medical care when she's elderly and requested a female medic. If a Bernard Bresslaw lookalike turned up (showing my age, there!), she (and any other members of the family) would have no legal comeback to complain.'

PS I know that I have blatantly copied TransplantsArePlants 's idea with my new name

My (female) partner completely 'got' the issues, but I could see she was thinking I was winding myself up about it far too much - until I made her read the 'Fair play for women' stuff whilst I was away for a couple of days.

I came back to find her ranting, even angrier than I was and asking where she could get leaflets, etc because she was going to give them out in town, put up stickers, etc etc. She's shared the FPFW stuff with friends and is right on the campaign now.

I think choosing some appropriate material and asking him to read it might be a good idea.

It's the whole 'I don't see what you're making such a fuss about' brigade that piss me right off, along with the ones (and there are many women amongst them) who simply shout 'Bigot?' even when you explain that predatory men will exploit self-id and all women and girls will be at far greater risk.

A Stonewall thing popped up on my Facebook feed today. It featured a lesbian wearing some 'TWAW!' t-shirt and proclaiming the glories of being marvellously woke and not at all bigoted.

Ask him if he then accepts full and total responsibility for any incident involving your daughters within a TWAW paradigm, particularly formerly single sex spaces and facilities.

So if anything happens, it's his fault. He agreed with the position.

Persevere however annoying he is. We've had awful fights over this and even in the last two weeks my OH has made a comment that I was obsessed. He could see there was a problem but wouldn't accept it was that much of a problem in RL and didn't understand my concern as we have boys and it was unlikely to ever affect me. Even explaining exactly how it would affect me didn't seem to get through. He was repulsed by the Challenor case and didn't really want to hear the drip drip of revelations I relayed after AC & Green Party involvement (that was the obsessed comment) but he came back from work after a conversation with a more senior manager that had strayed onto the problem of trans violence towards women and OH commented that his colleague knew there was a problem with trans attitudes towards women hadn't heard about the AC & Green Party link so he'd provided an update.
Whilst I resent it's taken so long and a conversation with another male to get him to this point it's progress. I've had much more success with my student DSs.

The problem I have found in talking to people in real life is that I have been aware of this issue since the Swim England debacle which I think I noticed around March this year, so have learnt loads of things and know lots of names. Once I start talking about it I can't stop and I perhaps need to rein it in a bit because I am risking overloading people with too much info.

Here's a thing though - I was talking about the unfairness of sports with my 13 year old DS and he said ' well, there needs to be men's, women's and trans sports then'
How sensible, if only that third option could be applied across the board