Can we talk about why members of the cabinet are too scared to talk about self ID?

[GulagMilkMonitor]

This has been playing on mind for a few weeks but I squeezed a baby out of my vagina and forgot the details of who wrote the piece and when. After a bit of a search around I found it.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/27/victoria-atkins-deserves-praise-not-vilification-speaking-transgenderism/

This piece by James Kirkup, which is discussed here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348609-Kirkup-in-Telegraph-on-Victoria-Atkins

Has such an incredibly disturbing quote that every time I think about it, I am almost brought to tears.

“Last month, a Cabinet minister told me: “There are real issues here, and I’d like to speak about them, but frankly I’m scared to.”

A CABINET MINISTER.
Let that sink in.
A cabinet minister is too scared to even discuss this issue.
A cabinet minister is too scared to discuss the safety of women and girls.
TOO SCARED.

Now I’m not suggesting we try to work out who this is because frankly if they don’t feel safe - I get it. However I am angry with them, really bloody angry.
These are some of the most powerful people in the country and this is an incredibly important issue that they are refusing to speak up on.

The idea of self ID keeps me up at night, I am scared to talk about it because I’ll probably lose my job but I’m out there doing it. We are just normal women putting our necks on the line but members of the cabinet are too scared.

t's a bit like 'my friend the teacher told me blah blah'

It's never a true representation of what is happening in a school. Be extremely wary of thinking anyone will ever really attach any credence to hearsay.

This sort of stuff weakens debate. It shouldn't really be singled out as a praiseworthy statement, unless you want to look desperate.

This sort of stuff weakens debate. It shouldn't really be singled out as a praiseworthy statement, unless you want to look desperate.

Thanks for that.

The comment reveals the scale of bullying and intimidation going on. And when you look at the real harm being done to children, it becomes even more unacceptable that politicians are silent.

I found it really shocking too. If the Cabinet Minister concerned comes across this thread I hope they will think long and hard about why they went into politics in the first place.

If there was never any smoke without fire, the expression 'no smoke without fire' wouldn't have been made up. Many, many times there is smoke because there is fire. Plus, unless you have got your head completely stuck up your arse, it is quite obviously a toxic debate and blatantly one people are not prepared to stick their heads above the parapet for. Therefore, the sentence extracted from the article is VERY likely to be true.

I honestly don’t believe that they’re too scared. I believe that the men, who make up most of the political roles, don’t give a shit, because it doesn’t affect men. The women don’t give a shit, because they’re unlikely to be using public swimming pools, ordinary clothes shops, etc, so it doesn’t affect them to the same extent that it will impact on ordinary women. They get to have ‘woke’ points and seem very progressive, while women’s rights are being roled back.

I have noticed that James Kirkup's articles have become more and more explicit in asking politicians to speak up. He started off by hinting and now outright says it. He's a patient and polite man so you can feel his frustration.

There is nothing I dislike more than a cavilling, pusillanimous politician.

Remember this if you are reading: I will take note when you cowards eventually say something and I will remember forever that you let ordinary women risk jobs, reputations, even physical safety to do this work for you.

I think it's a bit much being angry at what is basically the victim of bullying and intimidation.
Yes they may have more power than the likes of us, but that would disappear in a flash if they spoke out.

I actually agree with positively too, even though it contradicts my smoke/fire thing.

I'm sure they're scared. Everyone's scared. We have thread after thread about it.

And then we're stuck on this seesaw of blaming them for not stepping forward, but understanding why they don't.

However this is a cabinet minister. It's their job. They are an elected individual who represents the public. Including women, for God's sake. Over half the population.

They don't have to stand up in the middle of Parliament and shout transwomen are men.

But they could put out feelers, mull over a rapist in women's prison. And they could certainly tackle the issue of John Bercow's decision to disallow the question in the House of Commons.

There are too many things happening in the press to leave your head below the parapet. You have to pick a side.

Most people will not be picking the side of a rapist.

So it's time.

They need to step up. Politicians need to step up now, right now Because if they don't, they have picked a side.

I think it's a bit much being angry at what is basically the victim of bullying and intimidation.
Yes they may have more power than the likes of us, but that would disappear in a flash if they spoke out.

I actually agree with you and I’m the one who is angry.

My thing is though that whilst it is very difficult to put your head up above the parapet and speak out, these are the people who most benefit from the position of being able to do so. When they clam up and say nothing it means more stuff slips through the net and is normalised. It becomes the norm that criticising medicalising childhoods or rapists in prisons is called “transphobia”. So then when one person lower down the ladder does voice an opinion they get ripped to shreds.

If members of the cabinet do have genuine concerns or just want to have both sides of the debate aired then they shouldn’t be whispering behind closed doors.

Viking's insinuation seems to be that Kirkup is making it up, which there doesn't seem to be any evidence for.

I think it's fairly obvious that politicians are too intimidated to speak out. Look at what happens to anyone who speaks out on this topic - the abuse piled on Graham Linehan, for example, or even on JK Rowling for the crime of "liking" an article arguing that rapists don't belong in a women's prison. We know that female MPs in particular are regularly subjected to rape and death threats for expressing an opinion on almost anything.

But at some point the tide will turn. You need one or two brave people to speak out and others will follow.

Gulag - this is at the crux of the issue. Cabinet ministers should not be afraid to discuss this and they should be embarrassed by their silence.

Can we talk about why members of the cabinet are too scared to talk about self ID?

My bet is on some career destroying pictures or acts of any kind (might even be insider trading or taking some bribe) sitting in some nice little vault.

Deep - I now have that scene from Scandal going through my head where Olivia Pope dishes out the envelopes.

Seriously. I wonder if they think they can ignore it to avoid losing votes if there is another election soon. However if the Tories came out more GC they would hoover up alot of votes. Many a disgruntled ex-labour would hold their nose and vote for women's rights. Or at least abstain.

You need one or two brave people to speak out and others will follow.

David Davies seems to speak out. Or at least, has defended WPUK if I remember rightly? And someone else met with them - Barry something? Hasn't made a jot of difference so far.

I'm not arguing against you, I'm as bloody frustrated as everyone else. I also think a lot of politicians are far too distracted, hobbled, whatever - by Brexit, and that will obscure this issue. Davies has bolloxed up his part of that so I guess he has nothing to lose by making nice with the worried ladies.

Can we look at the timetable of issues for the govt, maybe? As I understand it, the GRA consultation closes in October, hence we feel like a big push is needed right now. But what's the timescale on getting a result, and what happens next? Brexit comes to a head in March next year - could it be that MPs are waiting to dispatch that (or have been told to say nothing), and kick the GRA into the long grass because everyone will be looking elsewhere? Could it be a "stall til you're blue in the face and hope it goes away" tactic? After all, there is no impetus to change the status quo other than "being nice to lobbyists".

What am I missing here?

If Kirkup had had that answer from a Labour Shadow Minister, I'd understand. Labour are scared of being de-selected and replaced with a preferred Momentum bro (if they're under threat, this will happen anyway, so they've little to lose).

But a Conservative? They would appeal to their heartlands by making this about free speech. Unless misogyny runs so deeply that they know their core voters' loathing of women and political progress is so strong they'd sooner cede free speech that be seen to do something that centres women.

Deep - I now have that scene from Scandal going through my head where Olivia Pope dishes out the envelopes.

Haha. But, seriously, I do believe that the transagenda is supported by big money (Pritzker, the Soros Open Society foundation, Big Pharma I guess,...) that sets the tone, so I do believe that many politicians don't want to fall out of the good graces of some powerful lobbies that can help in all kinds of ways (political career, post-politics jobs, investment opportunities... you name it).

If a big name Tory were to go on the record as being opposed to self-ID I think it would help their career more than harm it. If they're Labour otoh I wouldn't put it past the party to have them deselected.

deepwatersolo wrote: I do believe that many politicians don't want to fall out of the good graces of some powerful lobbies that can help in all kinds of ways (political career, post-politics jobs, investment opportunities... you name it).

Gah, you're right. I'd overlooked this. There'd be no chance of a lucrative non-Exec directorship in banks/finance industry for a Cabinet Minister who fronted up on this issue. Pip/Phillip Bunce of Credit Suisse comes to mind - and CS's policies. And there must be many other institutions with similar.

Have you read what Victoria Atkins said about being cautious when treating children? The trans lobby attacked her when she was extremely moderate

Tory heads will be firmly under the parapet on this, as Brexit is their issue du jour. (And then some.) Their standard tactic for dealing with Labour, since Corbyn was elected, is to let Labour destroy itself from within, without their hands on the dagger. They don't need the trans-shouties creating noise.

The consultation will finish, and nothing will happen. It would not be priority legislation anyway with both both Brexit and a world economic slowdown ahead.

Come the election though there will be great Tory glee as they will be able to point out the implications of mad Labour Council and Labour aligned organisations' policies. A vote for Labour will be voting to accept the loss of women's protected status. Labour supporting women, like Jews, will find themselves between a rock and a hard place. Unless the moderate split from Labour happens before then, and organises itself pretty quickly. Which I don't think will happen.

I wish the bloody Tankies would bugger off and form their own party.

I read something on Twitter last night that of course I can’t find now, but made me more determined to speak up. Something like, ‘in 50 years time, when everyone is looking back and going ‘how did we let that happen?’ I want to know that I did what I could.’

I wish the bloody Tankies would bugger off and form their own party.

My thoughts precisely. And I include the democratic centralism in the TUC that led to the self-ID motion passing in that.