Debbie Hayton in the Times

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-are-right-to-have-concerns-over-trans-reforms-5kj5k28sd?shareToken=aa090ad90f6f886db629247a0d6ca19b

Pineapple at a guess, female socialisation. Women who identify as men do not feel superior to men, have not been raised from birth to see women as lesser. Men who identify as women often demonstrate their innate sense of superiority and entitlement over biological women.

It's been interesting to see a transman I work with who will argue, threaten, invoke flying monkeys and get very upset at boundaries put down by female line managers (the word 'transphobic' gets used a lot, although the arguments are about not being exempted from the boundaries and made a special case, those boundaries, like what you're allowed to send via email, are identical for every employee) and will go to male members of staff and ask them instead. They are not willing to see female staff as having authority and see male staff - even male staff of lower management rank - as having greater authority and power over women. It's fairly blatant that they see women as inferior to men, and their transition is in part enacting their own rise above this inferiority.

The answer is that none of the above make any difference from the point of view of the people (women) whose spaces the people above are insisting that they have a better claim on than the other groups.

Women who identify as men do not feel superior to men, have not been raised from birth to see women as lesser.

I have wondered lately if some of those who identify as men see themselves as superior... whether that is to women or to those who are not trans I don't know.

Clarice - I'm loving your posts on this thread.

Debbie I'm going to make a prediction, and I'm going to offer you some unsolicited advice, which I think will be in your best interests.

The landscape is changing. I can't say how long it will take, but people are starting to assert absolute boundaries and reject the legal and ethical principle that a person can change from male to female and vice versa.
This will not reverse. It will grow, and it will reach an inevitable conclusion. The UK is looking very likely to be the fulcrum of change, and then the balance will shift back everywhere.

You can't stop this. All you can do is look to the future. It would be in your best interests to view this short period of history where we as a society mistakenly allowed a lie to temporarily be forced upon others, as a short-lived and unsustainable 'faux-solution' to a problem. That faux solution will be replaced with something else based upon a real and ethical foundation, and society will no longer accept 'sex changes' in any way.

Your best bet is to align yourself with what is coming. That so called sex changes are a finite blip in history, that they obstruct a real solution to inequality, and that they should be self limiting, and should be drawn to a close.

If you support the end of this era of forced pretending, and work with those who are ushering in a new era of real women's rights, then I think it is possible that the few individuals who have already gained legal recognition as the opposite sex will continue to be honoured as their legal status. A grandfather clause is a real possibility, one that accepts those men are a product of their time, but draws a line behind them and does perpetuate the problem further.

I think this is a concession that might be negotiated from women, perhaps, if we saw that the door was finally closing on the redefinition of women and their rights.

It's just my opinion. But this is where I think we'll end up.

Whether that grandfather clause will come to pass or not I cant know. It doesn't help that yet another paedophile rapist is in the news today for being transferred to a women's prison, and this one has a GRC and is legally female, yet genitally intact. The concept that having a GRC renders a person completely harmless is dissolving daily amongst examples like these. [This last sentence has been edited at the poster's request]

I know what I would do in your shoes. And it isn't doubling down on 'I'm prepared to negotiate women's own boundaries with them'. It's 'I get it. It needs to stop now. Where do I go from here'

The whole thing is in part the kind of jostling for position that men always do, and as always, women are not players in the game, we are the ball.

I read this article yesterday by Thomas Szasz published in 1979

Its worth reading:

www.nytimes.com/1979/06/10/archives/male-and-female-created-he-them-transexual.html

I don't know who has a doctors note and who doesn't how can I tell if this is a 'nice' trans or a 'nasty' trans? Some TW, no matter how transitioned they are still don't pass. Honestly how can women tell it's a genuine question.

Even if you haven't got a penis you still have a male body and a physical advantage over me.

I'm increasingly cynical about GD being a criteria for entry into single sex facilities. That's just allowing doctors to dictate who is and who isn't a woman. That's patriarchal as fuck.

To me, this is nonsense. It's all just male born people arguing about the criteria upon which they should be allowed to come in to female spaces. My criteria is simple. Females only.
I agree with this, but Debbie is arguing for a different set of criteria to TRAs.

Of course if the line is just no males at all ever, the criteria is irrelevant, but Debbie is making a different point from TRAs around the criteria.

This thread has been astonishing. I thought the scales had fallen from my eyes several months ago and realise now the scales had only fallen from the scales. The process of burrowing down beneath the layers of gas lighting, compromising, desire to be kind and inclusive that have clouded the arguments and caused people to find these issues confusing is really a journey in understanding how massively the world is run by men, for men. I thought I knew that, but I didn’t really have a clue. I rarely post but I read avidly and am spreading the word in real life. Every single person I have spoken to about the implications of self ID gets it immediately. They just find it very hard to believe that the govt, the BBC, schools, the NHS, the prison service, the Girl Guides, political parties, sports bodies, local councils, psychologists have all abandoned rational belief and scientific knowledge and think men are actually women “because they say so”. Thank you FWR for continuing to provide astonishingly well written, insightful and intelligent contributions to the debate. I feel the warmth, strength and power of you all and it is very empowering.

Women's socialisation is increasingly weaponised against us.

Including, "You tolerated this breaching of your previous boundaries, this is just formalising it and extending it. You can't object because then you're inconsistent".

No. Michael Conroy recently wrote about femaleness as a permanent target.

twitter.com/MichaelConroy68/status/1041763739371032578

I'm happier to be targeted for perceived inconsistency than for being responsible for being a beachhead for the destruction of safeguarding.

I feel the warmth, strength and power of you all and it is very empowering.

Yes.

In terms of perceived inconsistency, I'd say that admitting that you made a misjudgement in the past and then working to correct it is a sign of intelligence and strength, not of weakness.

Thanks Lang

I've only just caught upon the thread and don't have anything new to add really, as you've said it all already (and much more articulately than I could).

I just wanted to add my 'No'. Female spaces are for females.

The landscape is changing. I can't say how long it will take, but people are starting to assert absolute boundaries and reject the legal and ethical principle that a person can change from male to female and vice versa.

I just wanted to say I agree with this. It has been very frightening watching the fabric of society changing and knowing that so many institutions have rolled over in support of that, despite women being harmed.

But it absolutely does feel like we've reached a tipping point and things are only going to snowball from here on in. With several major news stories this summer exposing the reality of the situation, many of the TRA's main arguments about being vulnerable and oppressed are looking embarrassingly flimsy. We need to keep shouting our argument and journalists need to keep being brave and speaking up. The tide is turning.

Your best bet is to align yourself with what is coming. That so called sex changes are a finite blip in history, that they obstruct a real solution to inequality, and that they should be self limiting, and should be drawn to a close.

If you support the end of this era of forced pretending, and work with those who are ushering in a new era of real women's rights, then I think it is possible that the few individuals who have already gained legal recognition as the opposite sex will continue to be honoured as their legal status. A grandfather clause is a real possibility, one that accepts those men are a product of their time, but draws a line behind them and does perpetuate the problem further.

I think this is a concession that might be negotiated from women, perhaps, if we saw that the door was finally closing on the redefinition of women and their rights.

Barracker I could kiss you - the quote plus the rest of your comment eloquently summarise the situation yet again, plus what is going to happen. It's just my opinion too and I do agree it's "get on board with us or be trampled underfoot" time, as the backlash is gaining momentum.

If nothing else, scapegoats will sadly be required by the mob who will vent their displaced anger onto some poor souls at having lost/being betrayed by bankers and politicians yet again, - only this time it won't be women.

Thank you to the patient women who have explained on this thread, you've helped me get it. Women are entitled to female only spaces - why on earth was I buying into anything less than this? It's a shock to discover my ingrained socialisation is so strong and so subconscious I actually hadn't seen how outrageous it is for men and for transwomen to feel entitled to tell female people what they may have, what privacies they may enjoy, and that basically their rights are always within the gift and generosity of men - to give or to take.

Fuck. That.

I agree.

And the sound of all those pennies dropping is deafening.

This from Clarice

On the women's side, there is the problem that women are socialised to be utterly shite at acting out of self interest, or even to recognise what our own interests are. That's why a lot of people with male socialisation find us frustrating, full of mixed messages and difficult to pin down. So the problem isn't your self-interest, but women's lack of self-interest. That's why it is so easy to trample all over us without even knowing you are doing it (or even us knowing that you are doing it - we are more likely to find ourselves at fault again).

And this from ThelmaRB

The process of burrowing down beneath the layers of gas lighting, compromising, desire to be kind and inclusive that have clouded the arguments and caused people to find these issues confusing is really a journey in understanding how massively the world is run by men, for men. I thought I knew that, but I didn’t really have a clue.

It really is a case of a problem being so big it’s difficult to see, isn’t it?

These posts have really helped crystallise things for me, in terms of understanding the rise of transgender ideology and also on a personal level. My thanks to both posters.

I thought the scales had fallen from my eyes several months ago and realise now the scales had only fallen from the scales.

This is such a good way of putting it.

We all initially peak, but then discover that it comes in wave upon wave upon wave.

But the really radical act is the initial opening of the eyes to see it.

PineappleSunrise

There is a strange silence around how men (and the social hierarchy in general) need to change so that GNC men do NOT have to feel threatened or rejected in male spaces. Why is that?

Does anyone ever suggest that if GNC men dressed less provocatively they’d be safer going about their business? Because they say it to women all the time. Why is that?

This thread is a perfect example of why TRAs* have worked so hard to try to prevent women from talking to each other about these issues in a direct and uncensored way. One woman alone may doubt herself, because she's been socialized to do so, but when she sees dozens of other women all thinking the same things she's been thinking?

*The same applies to men as a whole too.

This thread is great. I have seen a few things in the last few days, for the first time. The idea that our daughters well mine at her age anyway may not have to watch all this unfold around her through her friends and school phse. That there could be some move towards helping people feel comfortable in their own bodies. I saw some pictures on twitter (am now twitter obsessed.) In some tweets around phaloplasty. I never knew what was being done to young girls in such numbers. It occurred to me that to sustain trans is a seperate existence, it must be so hard. It seems to me -no expert by any means- that it can’t be maintained in a natural way without chemical assistance or surgery, both of which don’t seem to leave the trans person with what they may believe is possible when they start the journey as a small child. I feel they are outright lied to. I now think it’s unethical to treat children and also adults like this. I never knew- I’d never thought that they’d never have a functioning sex life with functioning genitalia if they transition. I have realised that I am off the fence of sharing our spaces. It always felt insitinctively wrong,but now I don’t think it helps anyone. I’m watching lots of FB conversations that go along the lines of- “all men aren’t rapists you should let them in.” If that’s true for the majority then why should trans males fear men then? I’ve been watching twitter and Facebook around particular councils in the U.K. that I have interest in. It seems that Liverpool have some serious disregard for opinion and saftey, and that from people’s experiences trans people are already feeling worried to use public changing and loos. Which is horrible. I can sympathise with that feeling of not being safe. But I don’t see that institutions ignoring women will help anyone- I worry about a serious backlash now. That won’t do anyone any good either. Sorry for the very long waffle there.

Debbie Solutions must be pragmatic and workable

Do they? We set speed limits on roads not because we expect them to be 100% enforced and 100% adhered to, but because we wish to set and encourage a standard of behaviour.

Just because something cannot be 100% enforced does not mean we should give up trying. That is appeasement and collusion. A race to the bottom. Weak boundaries. An abusers charter. Whatever jargon you like.

As PPs have said, no one can see what is or isn't under a transowman's clothes. And women shouldn't be having to worry and wonder.

If we say no males in female segregated spaces we know that some males will break the rules, but women will also have the expectation and 'permission' (from males) to be rightfully bloody angry about it and if they are caught, we should have the expectation that those males will be punished. That is justice, a human right.

If we say no males in female segregated spaces we know that some males will break the rules, but women will also have the expectation and 'permission' (from males) to be rightfully bloody angry about it and if they are caught, we should have the expectation that those males will be punished. That is justice, a human right.

YES.