Debbie Hayton in the Times

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-are-right-to-have-concerns-over-trans-reforms-5kj5k28sd?shareToken=aa090ad90f6f886db629247a0d6ca19b

Adding my best wishes for your recovery Moveablefeast

The article that BeUpStanding linked is important. Those who are interviewed in it eg Stephen Whittle, Christine Burns & Sarah Brown were key to the 2004 act. Presumably therefore people who might be described as 'old school transsexuals' and likely have the GRC?

THey have also been key advocates and policy advisers for the shift in trans rights to include all who selfidentify gender under the Stonewall umbrella.

and all best wishes for continuing recovery, Moveablefeast.

I hope I have never shouted down anyone who objected.

**

I've never seen you do that LangCleg. I've seen you do some pretty fucking horrific things to recipe threads but I've never seen you do that. Uncringe thyself wench.

Debbie, as a transexual with a GRC, you know that the law is on your side, that legally you have been issued an entitlement over women.
Men created the Yogyakarta principles for you.
Men lobbied for you.
Men in the House of Commons debated for you.
Men in the House of Lords debated for you.
Men made a law for you.
Men devised an authorisation process for you.
Men made judgements, set legal precedents for you.
Men created surgeries for you to tell you the male body could be made to 'look female'.
Men gave you a certificate to force people to pretend you were Female.
Men gave you legal rights over females.

You talk of your 'banishment' from Female spaces.
Of 'being willing to debate our rights' with us
Of 'finding solutions'

You say you're an intellectual.
Are you intellectually honest?
What you have is a legal mandate, from men, over women.
The question is, will you use it, once you see it for what it is?
Will you hold it over women and proffer us an opportunity to 'debate' our boundaries and our rights with you, holder of a male mandate?

Or will you reject it and see this abominable situation for what it is; yet one more example in a millennium long history, of men asserting dominance over women?

You have a legal mandate. It is not a moral one. It has always been immoral.

I thought Debbie didn't have a GRC. Could be wrong but seem to remember reading it somewhere.

Barracker your posts on this thread have all been brilliant so clear and well argued. Brava.

I've never seen you do that LangCleg. I've seen you do some pretty fucking horrific things to recipe threads but I've never seen you do that. Uncringe thyself wench.

Haha and thank you. WEETABIX!

On a serious note: I have gone from I don't want to throw old school transsexuals under the bus but will if that's the choice I'm forced into into a fully woman-centred view, which is in large part thanks to the women here who have had the courage to speak up about their own fears and feelings. I thank them all for that. Because it isn't fucking easy.

LangCleg I wouldn't be able to recall who says what, and although I am massively grateful for the men who are speaking up, it winds me up when they make sweeping statements about how women and transsexuals 'tolerated eachother' or 'used to rub along together just fine' there was an 'honour system'. They cherry pick which women's voices they want to amplify and it's not mine.

And Germaine Greer is welcome to take all her non-sexualised dumps in the men's from this day forward.

when they make sweeping statements about how women and transsexuals 'tolerated eachother' or 'used to rub along together just fine' there was an 'honour system'

For my own part, I think I have realised the gaping gulf between the subcultures I moved in when I was younger and the real world for most women.

Never stop talking. You're changing minds.

A voice of reason in an ever degenerating debate. Good to see transgender people on our side.

Wow Barraker. Bloody amazing.
You have a legal mandate. It is not a moral one. It has always been immoral.
That's rocked me back on my (kitten) heels. You are absolutely right.

I just assumed I did been unlucky in all my dealings with transsexuals, I even campaigned for their rights. I look back on that woman of two years ago and cringe over my handmaiden naivety.

Barracker your posts on this thread have been superb. And why does Debbie get a voice when posters like Barracker here write better and have something more interesting to say, everyone of us has just as much personal insight and as much to lose as Debbie. Oh yes we're just women

Doyenne to be fair Debbie doesn't get a voice in the wider debate either - the only voices being listened to are those who insist that their feelings trump our biological reality. Debbie and Miranda and Rose and other GC transsexuals risk attack from all sides. I have watched my position harden as women have been repeatedly shut down and as the demands of the transgender lobby become ever more totalitarian. I just read Barraker's post and was almost in tears. She's right. But I'm not (yet?) willing to pull up the drawbridge. I've gained strength from women, from transsexual women and from men during this campaign. I still hope to find a piece of ground that we can stand on together.

Oldstyle yes I agree Debbie has come under a lot of flak from extremists under the trans umbrella. But Debbie is getting a voice in newspapers like the Economist and the Times and we are not. I've found Debbie to be likeable and courteous but i have noticed when there are difficult questions here she disappears and doesn't resurface until there's praise for her 'brave' stand.

And there appears to be some inconsistency can I say hypocrisy about what is actually a simple question about Debbie's use of female spaces

Debbie has been on BBC morning news and had an article in the times in the last few days. Debbie has a voice.

Love Baracker and Deepwater posts.

Absolutely nails it.

If Debbie says she's not afraid to debate then she must return to this thread and address some of the points that have been made.

And why does Debbie get a voice ...

The article linked in the OP was in the Times, and was at least partially in response to a Janice Turner column - I don't know if she ever actually posts on MN but for sure she's 'one of us', and a woman who writes well.

Hypothetical situation.

A transwoman teaching in a school uses the female staff facilities.

How does that school then deal with a boy who says he wishes to be regarded as a girl, wants to use the girls' changing rooms & toilets and be treated as a girl on school trips involving overnight stays?

Has the teacher asked her female colleagues if that's OK to share their facilities - although it would be a given these days, as it would be very hard for a female colleague to object.

Do the teacher's male colleagues pose any sort of threat to her and would they actually give a toss if the teacher used the men's facilities?

Wouldn't it just be simpler to use the men's? If not, why not?

Baracker

Stunning posts, as usual.

Once you see 'John' and his male mandate, lording it over women, it's impossible to unsee.

Many women find it a process. The desire to be nice evolving into the horrible realisation that what they desire is irrelevant.

TimeLady. And if that teacher teaches PE, do they go into the girls changing rooms?

pachyderm - I remember being in the communal changing room at Top Shop in the 1990s as an awkward, body conscious teen and an obvious middle aged transwoman came in to try on some clothes, accompanied by a younger woman. It was horrible. Bad enough having to try on clothes in those ghastly, badly lit rooms with lots of other women and girls, never mind having a man in there too

The fact that I can remember this so vividly 30 odd years later, when I can't think of a single other changing room experience or customer, is testimony to the impact this had on me as a teen. No-one asked my consent to cross that boundary

And if that teacher teaches PE, do they go into the girls changing rooms?

Well, quite. And who do they supervise on trips involving overnight stays; the girls or the boys?

Or are they excused from those because, y'know, they're different.

Only hypothetical atm, but who is to say that's not what lies ahead with self-ID? What headteacher could stop that happening without being hauled over the coals for discrimination?

I hope the Times publishes another article by a lesbian specifically about the issues lesbians are facing from rapey "ladydicks".

Keep on hoping or hopping there with that. It will never happen.

I'm not (yet?) willing to pull up the drawbridge. I've gained strength from women, from transsexual women and from men during this campaign. I still hope to find a piece of ground that we can stand on together.

I'm not going to turn my nose up at male allies including those who call themselves transsexual. Some have shown courage getting involved in this issue which can mean treading on eggshells.

However my gratitude and appreciation does not extend to letting them re-define what a woman is or decide who gets to be in women's spaces. To any who are tempted, that's what is called crossing the fucking line.