Parents and childcare.

[MitchDash]

I am really struggling with this of topic. I've seen it so many times on mumsnet.

Why is childcare 100% the mums responsibility? ie, husband changes job/hours and mum has to sort out childcare changes. ex husband does the same and it's still mums job even though they share custody. Mum gets job and dad makes literally no adjustments to working life to particpate in the managing of childcare. Or any other change to anyones employment. Don't even get me started on 'helping' with housework.

Is it 2018 or not?

It's 2018 in the UK.

It's the same for care - any care as well as childcare.

Women are taking the hits to their work, careers, pensions and being belittled for the social value of this work. They're predominantly having to carry the emotional and cognitive load of working all of this out and reconciling conflicting needs.

She picked the wrong man?
She thought she picked the right man then when kids came along he turned into a selfish twat?

We have a different arrangement. Somewhat reversed, actually, because I've been more career focused than my man. We agreed on that quite early on in our relationship. Both roles have their pros and cons, but our solution reflects our respective priorities.

Frankly, you can lament about patriarchy and gender til the cows come home, but the fact remains, that it depends on the partner you choose, and this is in a woman's hand.

Biology. Because we're women. Real women. With big brains who can multi task 😂 maybe this is where the trans lobby will come unstuck with their lack of multi tasking ;)

In my experience, women get trapped because often (not always of course, but often) they care more about what happens to their children and whether they get a good life. Same for caring for elderly parents. And they are willing to sacrifice themselves / their convenience to ensure their kids (or parents) are happy / well cared for.

Often this does not become apparent until later on in relationships when what appeared to be / professed to be feminist men (who were quite happy to do half the minimal cooking /housework before kids) suddenly decide there is an awful lot of work involved in looking after children / elderly relations and they're simply not going to do it (of course with the expectation - no doubt sometimes subconscious - that if they don't a woman will
). Which then leaves the woman in the position of letting their children / relatives suffer or picking up the slack.

Cupoftea (love the username!) has it...

SpartacusAutisticus, True, I was from early on very sceptical about my 'assigned' role (conservative catholic small town in the 80's) and could not believe what sh*t some girls accepted to get/keep 'their' guy. One day in school, I was maybe 16, when I pointed out some insanity again, a girl in my class said: 'Nobody will ever marry you with such an attitude'. And the guys nodded. And I answered: 'Oh calamity'. It was like we were speaking different languages.

I did make a very conscious choice. And I do (now) accept that other women may choose differently, due to socialization or inherent interests/priorities. But I still have a very hard time wrapping my head around women, who will pretty much deny their own identity to be 'the perfect match' for some specific partner, and then complain that he expects them to be just that. I mean, did those hypothetical women in OP's post ever even put their foot down to force a change?

Patriarchy and the vicious circle. Men earn more due to discrimination therefore the mother goes part time and it spirals from there.

Structural factors that can be very difficult for a woman to opt out of.

Picked the wrong man possibly. My husband helps a lot and we juggle together.

Because the reality of kids is a shock to both men and women. Often women realise too late that their DP is more traditional than they thought. At this point many women simply don't have the time or energy to parent their DP and insist on an equal load.

Just one reason.

I mean, did those hypothetical women in OP's post ever even put their foot down to force a change

Because, if everything else is great, you sound like a madwoman to say 'well, I had to divorce him, he never bloody picked up his socks and put them in the wash without me asking'

And what are your alternatives here? Because if you just stop doing his stuff, you end up living in filth. If you wait for him to take responsibility and sort out the kids dentists, all their teeth will fall out first.

And these men seem responsible until the kids arrive - they get themselves to the dentist, tax their car, pay their credit card bill, and arrive at work in clean clothes - they just, through socialization or laziness, don't see themselves as really responsible for the children. It's bloody frustrating and bizarre.

^Because, if everything else is great, you sound like a madwoman to say 'well, I had to divorce him, he never bloody picked up his socks and put them in the wash without me asking'

And what are your alternatives here? Because if you just stop doing his stuff, you end up living in filth. If you wait for him to take responsibility and sort out the kids dentists, all their teeth will fall out first.^

From what I have seen, these relationships are usually pretty clear cut already, before the kids arrive, and very often consist of women doing the laundry for both, the ironing for both, the cooking for both. Heck I know women, who drove the car from A to B, so the man could go kayaking and have a taxi. And this was never reciprocated.

Anyway, I, frankly, cannot see, why it would mean filth and rotten teeth if you don't do his laundry, cook for him and buy his toothpaste, in order to force a conversation on sharing some burdens. If that indeed means divorce for him, good riddance.

Well this is completely untrue in my case. I'm preparing to go back to work full time soon after 5 years of working part time due to childcare (100% my choice). My DH will be adjusting his working hours to do the morning school run as I will have to work early and I will be collecting them. Seems pretty even to me.

I think the wider issue comes from employers, though. It is 2018 and feminism is a lot stronger than it used to be but in a lot of workplaces, there is still the 'patriarchal boys club' in the top jobs, which inevitably means a level of expectation from their male employees (ie they work, the wives deal with the children), so it makes it much more difficult for men to request the time off/flexibility for childcare. Until they are effectively wiped from the workplace and modern management evolves it won't change.

I always feel like a brainwashing has taken place. If someone posts something similar anywhere else on MN a lot of women get so incredibly defensive defending their lifestyle and insisting it’s perfect for them and their choice. I don’t understand at all.

Deepwater I don't agree TBH.

I think - IME and from seeing what my friends work colleagues etc do - that pre kids things are pretty equal. Both earning, usually similar amounts (people often meet at work / are attracted to people similar to them in many sorts of ways) - two financially independent people seeing their friends, going out, sharing a house etc etc

The change seems to be when kids hit. I know things have changed now, when I had my kids it was still 2 weeks pat leave. So, baby comes along and the woman is at home and often on little money (stat min is not much after first 6 weeks unless that has changed as well) and so the house baby food shopping cooking cleaning are her sphere and the outside work money earning etc are his sphere. And bish bosh bash they slip into "tradtitional" roles before they know it.

I did this a bit when I was at home with DD1 once I felt better, the house was immaculate and we had lovely meals and stuff, it was all quite a novelty for me to be at home like that and it felt like the thing to do.... I didn;t last long but i'm not at all surprised that the home food kids resonsibility falls to the woman and defaults there, then stays even after she goes back to work, as society as a whole says, that is your job, and the men aren't exactly fighting to pick it up!

Women have babies is a fact but society is structured to devalue everything we do while at the same time saying most of the work is ours, there are answers I'm sure but I'm not sure what they are

I still do all the mental load stuff now.
This is very angering and very common.
This work is not just devalued but non valued and entirely invisible. And it's invariably the woman that does it.

Women who marry idiots, seems the right response.
If they do it and not insist on the man child doing it then it's their own fault.
If you want a man who treats you as equal, then marry one. Don't choose one that's shit.

Green

Will he be doing everything associated with the school run?
Letters, preparing bags, organising playdates, managing friendship problems, admin, etc.

I think - IME and from seeing what my friends work colleagues etc do - that pre kids things are pretty equal. Both earning, usually similar amounts (people often meet at work / are attracted to people similar to them in many sorts of ways) - two financially independent people seeing their friends, going out, sharing a house etc etc. The change seems to be when kids hit. I know things have changed now, when I had my kids it was still 2 weeks pat leave. So, baby comes along and the woman is at home and often on little money (stat min is not much after first 6 weeks unless that has changed as well) and so the house baby food shopping cooking cleaning are her sphere and the outside work money earning etc are his sphere. And bish bosh bash they slip into "tradtitional" roles before they know it

This was me, everything equal before kids, including salary. Not after. Dh is trying to change and I have talked to him about this but actually if you just don't do things the kids suffer. I don't do things that are solely for him, and have low standards about tidiness, but should I never change the kids sheets because he doesn't see this is something that needs doing / doesn't think it's important? I think most people would agree that literally never changing a child's sheets is not good parenting. So, he won't do it, should I divorce him because of that (causing again untold harm to all of us including the kids)?

Pre kids I did the sheets but he cooked and washed up more than me etc so I figured it was an equitable division of labour. And it was.

I think part of the problem for us was he just didn't see the work because he never had to stay home alone with the kids. So, as I "wasn't working" (hardest job I've ever had and no toilet breaks without an audience) he then assumed it was fair for me to do everything. Shared parental leave is the answer but men don't seem to be taking it.

i'm not at all surprised that the home food kids resonsibility falls to the woman and defaults there, then stays even after she goes back to work, as society as a whole says, that is your job, and the men aren't exactly fighting to pick it up!

Well, it obviously needs to be a conscious choice by the woman. If she is fine with the 'default', who is to argue with that? It may be the best option for her, both roles have their pros and cons.

But if she is not fine with it, 'default' is not some law of nature. When the baby came, I stayed home for 7 months and my partner stayed home for another 7 months (as agreed on, beforehand). All I am saying is: Women have agency in this. I'll paraphrase here: 'Men concede nothing without a demand. They never did and they never will.'

DH had no right to more than 2 weeks paternity with DD1. Shared parental leave wasn't a thing, it's really recent. We actually had a conversation about him staying at home caring for DD1 then realised the financial penalties would be too great. Hopefully now there is shared parental leave things will improve but it won't happen overnight, and many women simply don't/ didn't have a free choice, or the structural support to demand anything. For us the conversation went "would you like to stay home with dd1", "yes, maybe" (do maths), "we'll be £x,000 worse off if we do that, and you'd gave to probably quit your job." "Oh". The end.

*have