Don't drop the soap!

[lizzzyyliveson]

'Don't drop the soap' is an old punchline but it keeps coming back to me each time I read Zinnia Jones' tweet about it being fine for women to see a dick in the changing room. If it's so acceptable and men don't worry when they see a stray penis, why is this old joke even funny? Men KNOW that they are concerned about other men's penises when they are naked in communal spaces like showers.

I'm not sure if this makes sense outside my own head - I know I have seen lots of comic sketches on TV where the punchline is that an ordinary man is suddenly confronted by a larger male who is acting in an unusual and sexual way. I'm thinking Carry On movies and that genre.

We know that they know. Why is this so bloody infuriating?

It's not ideal and I think there should be a policy that trans women always use cubicles.

However I was brought up by a single dad with two older brothers and they had to take me in the men's changing room all time when we went swimming when I was little.

I saw lots of penises and I'm not scarred by it in the slightest.

If someone's behaviour is sinister that's a different matter but being trans does not equal sinister intent.

They just don't get it do they? :(

Oh come on. Seeing some floppy penises as a kid while protected by your dad and brothers is a bit different from everyday life.

And no one on Mumsnet has ever suggested that all transwomen are sinister, but some predators and creeps who manipulate others to get what they want are.

I also don't understand the logic whereby transwomen refuse to shower in a men's locker room (because men are scary and rapey apparently) but can't then understand "some women won't want to shower near me either since I'm still a biological male".

Zinnia doesn't 'get' a lot of things. For example why it's not a good thing to encourage minors to buy drugs over the internet.

They are no kind of yardstick for reasonable thought across the board.

Others beat me to it but I'll post what I wrote anyway.

There is a world of difference between having to change in the men's and inadvertently seeing penises and changing in the women's and seeing the penis of an AGP individual who is there to show off his penis and get a kick from a sexual kink.

It’s not transwomen going about their business that is the issue. It’s the men who will abuse the laws created for trans people for their own agenda of abusing, raping and terrorising women and children. There are men who already do this, no-one is stupid enough to believe those men won’t use these laws to get more access to their victims.

One of the first threads I posted on in MN about 4 years ago was about the appropriateness or otherwise of parents taking children of the opposite sex to the loos for the parents' sex and the cut off age.

I said that it is easier for mothers and small boys , given it is all cubicles, than for fathers and small girls as a father would not want to take a girl into a men's urinal past men pee'ing openly.

I was lambasted by posters laughing and mocking at how ridiculous and uptight I was- it is only a penis- what is the big deal? Every poster who commented did so to tell me I was wrong, and was a narrow- minded, uptight idiot for thinking a young girl should not/ might not want to see a penis.

That's wonderful for you jasmine.

Some women, myself included, have been assaulted sexually by a man - or a person with a penis - so some of us are kinda scarred

If penis owners, or men, aren't scary or a threat why can't trans identified males use the male facilities?

ADastardlyThing It's because they want validation for being female.

Ah, the old hand wave dismissal trick. As in, wave your hand and airily announce that 'Its just a penis' and all of a sudden every bad thing in the world just disappears in a fluffy cloud.

Coupled with a hefty dollop of "Well I'm fine with visible penises, so I don't really care about anyone who isn't."

It's an empathy-free zone, this arguing against the right to not see a penis thing.

Wrt the OP, yes, really, really telling that those tropes of the penis-as-weapon have traction even amongst men, albeit covered by 'humour'.

Well if "there's no issue with women seeing the dick of a TW in a women's locker room" surely there's no issue with a TW seeing the dick of a man in the men's locker room.

Fine. Let's just have unisex changing rooms, seeing as 'it's only a dick'. Let's have unisex prisons while we're at it. Maybe also unisex cage-fighting. Oh wait...
Also, if it's only a dick, how come it's so triggering for trans women to use the male changing room then?
Jesus Christ, I hope this idiotic madness stops very very soon. If you have a policy that easily allows a male rapist into an enclosed female space, you have to be a special sort of thick or sinister to think it's good on any level. If your first thought when hearing about vulnerable women getting assaulted is that it's so mean on the poor rapist not to let him be his 'true self', then what the fuck is actually wrong with you? Seriously. There are no words.

Jasmine is welcome to share spaces where she's changing with as many random penises as she likes, but the majority of women are saying a very clear "no".

I think saying that Zinnia has no empathy is letting them off the hook. I think Zinnia is perfectly aware of how much distress random cock causes women and either doesn't care or gets a kick out of it. I also think Zinnia would like every space to be a highly sexualized space and thinks that those of us who'd rather that not happen are prudes who should be overruled.

So they support mixed sex everything then, right?

It's not ideal and I think there should be a policy that trans women always use cubicles.

And how is that going to help the women in the open planned area that don’t want to get dressed/undressed in front of a man, when he walks to/from the cubicle?

Ah, the old hand wave dismissal trick. As in, wave your hand and airily announce that 'Its just a penis' and all of a sudden every bad thing in the world just disappears in a fluffy cloud.

^^ This. Is this were true, why do men engage in flashing to girls/women? Why is "indecent exposure" a crime under the Sexual Offences Act 2003?

Context is relevant. If the exposure in consensual and the parties are of the age and capacity to consent and it's in a place where it's appropriate then I doubt many would see this as essentially problematic.

Otherwise, and outside a relevant context, No.

PeakPants: "Also, if it's only a dick, how come it's so triggering for trans women to use the male changing room then?"

Quite. The whole thing is so fucking stupid from start to finish.

But if you follow the logic of "a trans woman's dick is perfectly harmless", then obviously it can only lead to the conclusion that all changing rooms should be unisex. Penises are fine! Penises are harmless! Well, if that's really true, then let men and women and trans people all get changed together.

But trans women don't want that. What they want is for them, and them alone, to be admitted to women's changing rooms. Now why is that, I wonder...?

I think that the first time a young woman sees an adult penis in the flesh it should be because she wants to and is enthusiastic about doing so. I am not willing to accept a scenario in which she's forced to do so when she'd really rather not because if she doesn't other women will scold her for not being nice.

A lot of men don’t get it. A medicine student, tweeted yesterday that he didn’t understand the relevance of genitalia when discussing rape.

I’m hoping these poeple are just trolling because the alternative it so bloody depressing.

Yep, Hackmum, it's about validation- nothing else. They would be gutted if female single sex spaces were removed and replaced with single secure cubicles, because then there would be nothing they could do to convince themselves that they were a) a real woman and b) passed for a real woman.

I genuinely don't know what planet some people are on. I read some academic agreeing that all people are on some spectrum of having a visible prostate gland and not having one and that 'most people fall somewhere in the middle of this'. No, you thick fuck- I have no prostate gland and nor does half the population. The other half does. It's not some fucking spectrum- nobody has half a prostate. Nor is a clitoris the same as a penis, just internal.

Imagine the safeguarding talks at school/elsewhere.

If a man shows you his penis in public, scream and tell someone.

If you see a penis in the girls changing room, do not scream or tell anyone. Or you and your family will be sent to the re-education camp. [Hmm]

A medicine student, tweeted yesterday that he didn’t understand the relevance of genitalia when discussing rape.

Maybe he is being mentored by Dr Adrian Harrop...

"ADastardlyThing It's because they want validation for being female."

Indeed. seeking something that simply cannot be. Must be so frustrating.

A lot of men don’t get it. A medicine student, tweeted yesterday that he didn’t understand the relevance of genitalia when discussing rape.

Does this so called medical student know what genitals are? Or what rape is? I think he needs to have a good chat with his supervisor about whether medicine is the right career for him.

FFS.

Does this so called medical student know what genitals are? Or what rape is?

One hopes that he's never minded to take up work as a Police doctor. Or that he has the self-knowledge and ethics to recuse himself from obtaining a rape-kit if he's ever on duty in an A&E and it's requested.