Another example of why trans rights, data collection, and identity need to be considered carefully

[PineappleSunrise]

Transgender woman's bank account frozen as she 'sounded like man'
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-45406e17

Reading the story, I have sympathy for the person affected by this. It sounds like she officially notified the bank of her identity change and its nature, so in the name of good customer service the bank should have been able to reconcile the male voice and the female name/pronouns.

But this is a good example of why social media slogans like TWAW/nodebate are useless for working how the real world needs to work to protect people from crime and to collect and maintain accurate data.

Lots of TRAs make it clear that they don't want any reference at all, recorded anywhere, to an individuals "assigned at birth" gender or previous identity. We have already seen how that impacts the way that some news stories have been reported. People here have asked what that would mean for future stats, only to be told that TIMs were "always women" so should be recorded as female in all cases.

Here we can see a solid, real world example of where everyone being in the know on an individual's trans status would actually HELP the individual by giving an organisation enough information to be appropriately respectful, while still giving the bank a way to verify identity and protect the account. (And notice that the BBC does say "transwoman", not "woman" - and the whole story is immediately clear right from the headline onwards.)

As I know many sensible posters on here have been saying this for ages, but: there are real complexities here to work through. Shutting down discussion and reducing everything to one-sided soundbites doesn't help anyone.

That link doesnt work, try this one;
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-45406917

I agree, there needs to be a note on the person's account.

I read this and whilst I appreciate it would have been both inconvenient and upsetting for the person concerned. The bank may have been simply acting to prevent fraud?

We've had cards frozen and a run around to unblock them and all but one have been false alarms. Once though there was a fraudulent use.

(it also reminded me of Aimee Challenor's complaint against TFL:
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/gender-neutral-announcement-sadiq-khan-tfl-london-ladies-and-gentlemen-announcements-a7463271.html )

It is amazing how an annoying encounter with customer service can, if you identify as trans, get you a story in the news. And even, as R0wantrees observes, a personal apology from the mayor!

ahahah. I once got told I didn't sound like a 50 year old woman on the phone (to do with an insurance claim). It never occurred to me to go to the papers about it.

Pineapple I agree with you. By denying biology which cannot be entirely disguised, trans people are potentially causing themselves unintended stress.

What really struck me in that account though was this:
*I have to make sure that every day no-one can complain about my appearance. I have to always be on the top of my game, always looking over my shoulder because at any point something can happen.

"And that shouldn't be the way anybody should live."

Being trans is obviously hard for many people. Why is it that rather than be who they are and behave and dress how they like, they feel the need to fight biology every day and try to 'be' something that they can't? Surely psychological therapies to help them live with what they have, in a way that feels authentic would be kinder than telling people they can actually change sex (as long as they do x, y and z everyday).

jgrobinson

It was more than an apology... on the basis of the incident, it seems Aimme Challoner leveraged the removal of the 'Ladies & Gentleman' announcement on TFL trains!

Voice therapy for trans people is a speech and language therapy specialism and available on the NHS to those going through transition. Like all therapies, it's hard work for the patient, who needs to be hugely motivated, and therapists vary in how skilled they are. Phone banking is a common stumbling block for trans people. Bamks imo could help by looking into flexible voice recognition systems that can cope with voices that are 'under construction' as it were, allowing for updating of voice identity recordings.

It is amazing how an annoying encounter with customer service can, if you identify as trans, get you a story in the news

Also Lily Madigan & the school?

If people who are transgender allowed reference to this on their bank records then it wouldn't be queried.
It could be part of thesecurity question screen so not neccessarily obvious unless needed.
Bank staff should be trained to ensure this is handled respectfully of course.

I understand it must be upsetting for the person, but surely they must understand security procedures?

I'm sure someone'll call me a Nazi for this, but I don't really want to find my bank account cleared, only to ring up and ask how/why, find that a man called and cleared it and when I ask how they allowed this seeing as I'm a woman, for them to reply "well we thought you were maybe transgender and gave the benefit of the doubt".

I had something quite similar to this just recently. The online booking system for my doctors wasn’t accessible with my screen reader so I had to ring up to order my prescriptions each month. Every time I get the same, are you over 65? No. Are you housebound? No. Well we can’t do it sorry. In the end I had a row with the senior receptionist, who after a lot of arguing, agreed to create a note that would pop up when they open my file to say that due to my disability I was permitted to order my prescription over the phone. It was partially successful, in that if I managed to talk loudly enough over their wall of fuck off to explain that there was a note on my account, I could get my medication, so I can understand how bloody infuriating it must be for this person.
Unfortunately for some of us navigating the system can be hard, and we have to find workarounds that aren’t always satisfactory, but by the same token there can’t just be a free for all. Men and Women sound different, and of course someone is going to be hesitant over the phone if they’re expecting a woman’s voice and they get a man‘s, in the same way that when I say I can’t read the numbers on the front of my card when I’m talking to the bank, it could mean to them that I don’t have the card at all and I’m trying it on. When things like that happen I try to think, well what if it wasn’t me? What if was really someone trying it on? Would I really want somebody accessing my account just because they’ve made up some stupid excuse to skip security?
The bank and this person need to come up with some sort of work around, a pop up note on the account or something. It’s annoying, and occasionally humiliating, I know, I’ve been dealing with it all my life, but they can’t just throw out security checks because someone is an exception.

but I don't really want to find my bank account cleared, only to ring up and ask how/why, find that a man called and cleared it and when I ask how they allowed this seeing as I'm a woman, for them to reply "well we thought you were maybe transgender and gave the benefit of the doubt".

And what of women who are experiencing abuse? Who may have been quietly buildng up finances to enable them to leave? Its much more likely that a partner has access to some of the information that could enable them to answer security questions have bank account information etc.

I've had the opposite with my bank - someone called up claiming to be me and managed to order a new debit card that they intercepted in the post. There was a full investigation into the fraud and the bank accepted it was their fault, when the recording came to light that it was a male with a strong foreign accent. I'd rather them keep common sense checks in the system until the local branch can see ID and note something on the file.

I recently failed a telephone banking security test because I couldn't remember what amount of money I'd withdrawn from what cashpoint a week prior. I'm menopausal for god's sake, I can't even remember what I had for tea yesterday sometimes. So I had to go into my local branch which was a pain but better than someone else accessing my bank account. It's just life.

That's what happens when you expect the world to validate your invisible identity but you choose to use words that have a very clear and tangible meaning -which you do not fit - to do it.

Female means something very real, and very recognisable, and very biological.
Bad choice of word to 'identify as' when you are a male.

Not everyone has magic skills that can distinguish between males who are fraudsters and should be caught by the security process, and males who are officially ladies inside (although not in their vocal chords, apparently).

It affects other things as well. I know somebody trans FtM (socially only) who couldn't give blood, because the nurse had to compare against the men's iron level because the friend had ticked the "male" box.

HotRocker
The online booking system for my doctors wasn’t accessible with my screen reader

Your GP may be breaking the law. It's possible to design websites that work with screen readers and audio browsers and it would be a "reasonable adjustment" for them to write "must work with screen reader: PASS/FAIL" into the tender document when buying the booking website software.

There isn't English case law yet, but there is Australian case law for service providers being found to have failed to make reasonable adjustments.

THere was also a publically released recording by a trans woman who was very angry that as part of the ambulance service's triage questions had been been asked for confirmation about their sex, having said they were a woman. From memory they would not confirm that they were a trans woman.
A complaint was made.

BlazeAway

It affects other things as well. I know somebody trans FtM (socially only) who couldn't give blood, because the nurse had to compare against the men's iron level because the friend had ticked the "male" box.

The other issue there is that women have to leave longer between donations than men because it takes us longer to replace the lost red cells. If the nurse applied the male donation interval to your friend, it could risk your friend's health.

Whilst no one is obliged to give blood and those who do are actual lifesavers, there's a high degree of narcissism and selfishness needed to turn up to a donor session, give factually inaccurate answers, and waste a slot that could have been used by a good-faith donor, just because one prioritises one's "gender identity" over saving someone's life.

Biology matters, people!

The hard fact is that white people who transition post-puberty don't pass.

I'm sorry, Shon, it's true. Your friends tell you that you pass, but, you don't.

It's a bit like kids with encouraging mums standing up on BGT to let loose some awful wail and Simon Cowell says "you're shit". He's saying the truth, everyone else has been cruel by pretending the kid had talent.

Trans people should be able to be proud to be trans. This pretending to be female is where they need their mum to step up and say "sorry love, you're not as good as you think you are. If I don't tell you, Cowell will on national tv and that will be worse"

Blood donations - remember this cracker from Pink News?

Trans-man breaks his arm. A+E ask if he could be pregnant and is he on hormones. Cue Penis News' outrage, what does his trans status have to do with a broken arm? Cue everyone-with-a-brain pointing out that x-ray harms foetuses and people taking T are at risk from osteoporosis.

Fucking numpties. Sex and medication status are relevant.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/03/28/theres-no-such-thing-as-a-transgender-broken-arm-trans-people-deserve-fair-non-discriminatory-access-to-services/

vivarium you are so going to be under his eye on the MN naughty step for saying that!

Am I? I didn't misgender anyone? Seriously?

I don't understand..had better go and read the guidelines again.

Ok, I'm going to need it spelling out -

potential racism: "white people don't pass" - well, some other races do pass really well as women, but if your build is broad and stocky, you don't. Sorry, white people.

"sorry Shon": Shon's said yesterday about how lucky she is that she passes. Maybe, in a well lit photoshoot - but, once she's mobile and talking, nope. I work in as liberal leftie environment as you can get, and I'm a right bleeding heart. Every time a person at work tells me "I'm trans" am I supposed to feign surprise? It makes as much sense to me as me loudly announcing to the office "I'm fat" - everyone can see I'm fat, it doesn't need pointing out.

"Should be proud to be able to be trans": I don't get why it's important to be actually female. Which is a biological impossibility. What's wrong with being a transwoman?

"Simon Cowall": to be fair, he's probably never actually said "you're shit", that was maybe a bit harsh.

Pink News: Sorry about the Penis. Again, that person should have been able to say without feeling awkward "I'm a trans-man" and should have enough of an understanding of his biology and medication to know that the perfectly sensible questions from A+E were, you know, perfectly sensible. If he didn't understand that when taking medication then he's not been able to give informed consent to the treatment regime and that's a big worry. Unless, of course, he was buying them online without input from a gender clinic. Which is also a big worry.

I really do worry for these people and the way social media sets up unrealistic expectations - yes, the woman on the phone to the bank was in a horrible situation, I can totally see why it must have been upsetting. But, surely she recognises that the majority of voices that go through male puberty does not sound female? They just don't. I don't see it's transphobic to state that, if it is, I'd be welcome of the chance to educate myself.

vivarium I wasn't having a dig, quite the opposite. It was you making a statement about some people who think they pass when perhaps people are simply being economical with the truth in order to save hurt feelings. I can't say anymore but I agree completely. It's not at all transphobic, it's the plain truth. But when we say truthful things we end up on the naughty step