Stella Creasey is on a guest post invoking SEX as a protected characteristic for legislation!

[BarrackerBarmer]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/3355761-Stella-Creasy-guest-post-If-MNers-act-today-you-can-help-make-street-harassment-a-hate-crime

Right now!

I started reading the other thread last night and came back to catch up. Why was it deleted?

Sisters is correct in that that is how existing hate crime and equality law works. Mistaken perception is a factor. It's not a special provision for MTFs.

The other thread was ‘hidden’ so the mods could ‘get some kip’.

Be interesting to see if it reappears this morning.

Men do not have this magic "biology detector" you think they have

Everybody has this. Pre verbal children have it.

Dogs and horses, too - those previously abused by men are often scared of them, and are mysteriously able to detect sex in humans without either asking for pronouns or knowing what a skirt is and why a particular human might choose to wear one, or not.

One of my two rescue dogs is absolutely terrified of men.
She only gets scared of women if they are wearing puffer jackets.

I sometimes wonder if certain people ever leave the house.

My friend used to work with a horse that wouldn't let anyone male into his pen (would attack anyone male who tried to enter). Friend wearing the same kind of practical clothes as the men working there somehow did not prevent stallion from recognizing her as a female human and thus not trying to kick the shit out of her.

The ability of mammals to sniff out the carrier of the opposite gametes is what ensures the continuation of the species.

I suppose a transperson who has never been through natural puberty might be harder to discern than those who have (both on a visual and subconscious level) but the research would require a number of people that are in this category (and the long term health implications around stuff like bone density and cancer risk mean that category should ethically remain infinitely small).

There is a great thread on misgendering on here, where we talked about this stuff.

The ability of mammals to sniff out the carrier of the opposite gametes is what ensures the continuation of the species.

You're literally so BINARY Betty

I’ve also got a rescue dog who is very wary of men as he was abused by a man.

It’s almost like he can tell someone’s sex upon meeting them, fancy that!

But I thought the stork brought babies and you worked out what kind you'd received based on the color of the bonnet they were wearing when they arrived, and then reassessed based on which toys they preferred in a year or two.

Don’t be ridiculous angryattackkittens, the correct way to discover your babies gender identity is to measure the length of the clitoris/penis once the stork arrives.

Ha! I’m under the trans umbrella as ‘genderless’ surely?

I actually got misgendered again this week, or at least, heard a kid ask his ma the question - was on my way into the gym (sweatpants, husbands old t shirt with the sleeves cut off, pink trainers from the girls section because then you don’t have to pay VAT on a size 5) and a boy of about 8 said ‘is that a man?’

Didn’t get to hear the answer, sadly!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3303233-Misgendering-How-do-biological-women-handle-it?pg=3

Is that why babies pee whenever you open their nappy?

Are they trying to show us where their urethra is positioned (clue - wee doesn’t come out of a clitoris) or perhaps they are trying to pee in our eyes and obscure our vision so we cannot judge them on their genitalia?

so in practice misogyny is directed at people who fit the social category of "woman"

There is no such thing as a social category of woman. Ffs.

And it's not to do with femininity. Men display misogyny whether females are feminine or masculine. Or indeed, not even born.

Transactivists already claim that disagreement with their sexiest ideology is 'transmisogyny'. They are running out of weapons, as people wake up to the manipulation. Their arsenal is almost empty. I have no doubt that if they approve this move, it's to acquire more sticks.

It takes a certain stone cold, manipulative determination to insist, on pain of severe repercussions, that people call you a woman and never acknowledge that you're male, and then claim that this very assertion can be produced as evidence of misogyny.

And how it works in reverse with transmen. Yet again.

Still not entirely sure that some of the more ardent believers in gender realize that women don't pee out of our penisclit.

It's a problem in scientific research - mice and rats behave differently when male researchers conduct experiments than when female researchers do.

I definitely question Stonewall's endorsement. Red flashing lights going off everywhere.

'transmisogyny' is a really nasty example of the language chicanery here.

It's clearly a word to be applied to perceived aggressions towards transwomen (those born male). It's clearly an accusation put to women who do outlandish things like insist on personal boundaries and talk about physical facts.

So it's a brilliant example of using the idea of 'misogyny' to actually punish women for hurting male's feelings. Which is through the looking glass stuff.

transmisogyny' is a really nasty example of the language chicanery here.

YY I agree.

Sorry Cote, I wasn't clear- I meant a clear definition of woman in this context. I suspect that "adult human female" isn't what they have in mind.

Don't forget that "hate" as an aggravating factor for a crime is based on the perception of the victim and not the motivation of the perpetrator.

So you could have a crime that was perceived by the victim as misogyny but not applicable to the protected characteristic of sex (victim is non-GRC holding trans). The same crime could be motivated by homophobia in the perpetrator (victim is non-passing trans that the perpetrator dislikes for the same reason they dislike gay men) but because this is not how the victim perceives it, there is no aggravating factor.

Absolutely ridiculous situation brought on by crimes defined by the possibly wrong perception of the victim and definitions that don't mean the same thing to everyone. How can any good law result from this?

Barraker

A word that literally means hatred of females used as a weapon against females by men.

Words mean stuff.

This. Rachel Dolezal, rightly, doesn't get much sympathy these days for suggesting she's been the victim of racism. It highlights the absurdity of arguments about the social category of "woman" though. RD was as much a part of the "social category" of African Americans as our TRA chums are of woman, but, like them, her adoption of that identity was pure appropriation and voluntary so any racism she allegedly received was due to her own choices and not an accident of birth.

There are very few TRAs arguing for Rachel's innate "identity" and against the curse of trans racism.

Probably because even they can see how grotesquely offensive that is.

The irony, of course, is that race actually is much more of a "spectrum" - it is possible to be mixed race but not mixed sex.

I'm willing, however, to accept that a proportion of MtF transsexuals might pass enough to be subject to misogyny. I would bet, however, that most of those are the ones who support women's rights and speak out at WPUK meetings: the genuine dysphoria sufferers who believe in learning from and listening to women and recognising differences.

But, of course, they won't be ones screaming about it.