Lived experience trumps yours ... discussion with a friend

[LePetitLarousse]

I'm quite new to these discussions, but from everything I've read here, I've come to agree with the gender critical position (or rather the GC position basically reflects what I've intuitively thought for a long time).

I have a friend who posts a lot about trans issues and I decided to ask privately why that was. I explained that I had come to take a GC position, and her argument was that one side was the oppressed - those who know what they`re talking about because of their lived experience, and that one side was trying to deny their existence. I replied that isn't that what many GC feminists are arguing. That the lived experiences of women matter too, and it women's spaces that are being lost. She retorted that it was nonsense, and anyway, didn't have the time to "tutor" me. I needed to read more about arguments against TERFs, and shared a terrible cartoon (Life of Bria).

What struck me was the absolute arrogance and certainty and unquestioning that her side of the debate was right, and anyone else needed to be tutored. Is this a common attitude experienced in discussing these issues?

Yes. Yes it is.

The hashtag #nodebate was very popular for a while. I guess they realised it was a bit Orwellian (or that the debate was happening without them?) because it’s fallen by the wayside of late!

Have had similar experiences, I'd say it's common purely because the loudest voices are most noticeable. To be charitable I think perhaps someone who is trans and is completely against being defined at all by their biology just can't begin to understand why it's so important to women to have their biology recognised and respected.

To be uncharitable I think some transpeople are just mysoginists in another guise and have no wish to respect women's feelings or rights.

The hatred towards women is worse than at any time before in my lifetime. Where before men who claimed to be civilised had to pretend they didn't hate us, now they've been emboldened because it's actually a virtue to abuse women and scream that they should be burned or raped or punched. We're not even allowed to be women anymore, because the important people men want that word for themselves.

It's fucking depressing.

This is essentially where the impasse happens - women know that the only thing we have in common with other women all over the world is our biology.
This is the foundation of our historical and ongoing oppression.
These are the things we talk about in women-only groups.

Transwomen do not share this biology, and many find it upsetting/annoying to be reminded of this. We are urged to be inclusive, to not centre our female bodies in our politics, in our friendships or our sports.

But without that global material commonality, all we are left with is a hollowed-out womanhood of stereotypes, accoutrements and accessories.

And frankly, fuck that shit.

I didn’t even realise there was a need for feminism until I was in labour with my firstborn, 18 years ago.

Now I’m through my pregnancy and breastfeeding years and dealing with peri menopause and the looming risk of the women’s cancer that killed my mother - I want to be able to give and seek support to and from other women and I won’t be cowed into silence by 1% (ish) of the population telling me I’m exclusionary or bigoted for doing so.

I’ve just outed myself on FB, have assumed the position and am awaiting heavy fire

Yeah I have been told I'm transphobic for saying women don't have dicks

Specifically for telling my toddler at the time (few years ago) what meant he was a boy was his willy.

I'm pretty liberal, attend pride, don't get too caught up in it however people I consider very normal are lately to me coming out with absolutely baffling statements of support for transpeople and seem to be puzzled when I point out that they are talking bollocks and it is not a hateful thing to say that women do not have penises. It is scientific fact.

I tell my kid love comes in all forms (within socially moral boundaries) tell him he can play with "girls" or "boys" toys as there is no such thing and only "children's toys" and I will allow him to wear a dress when he wants to be Elsa (at home now, I've spoken about how he may get teased now he's bigger if we go shopping in it etc) I've told him he can marry a man, or a woman, he can be whoever he wants to be - but I haven't told him he can be a girl. At least not long term, Elsa for an hour is fine, same as being a power ranger or Tree Fu Tom or Ben10 or Rainbowdash

That's not transphobic. It's bloody normal and totally weirding me out that "normal" people seem to think I'm being closed minded!

We're on the 'wrong side of history' apparently

Also that comic is laughably shite 😂

I’ve just outed myself on FB, have assumed the position and am awaiting heavy fire

I didn't post anything for a long time, but eventually thought "I have to wade through everyone else's anti-vaccine and anti-fluoride spam every single day, they'll just have to put up with my particular interest". I don't get abuse, but never get a single like or share. Just hope that constant reiteration of the revolutionary idea that women don't have penises gets through.

Can just say that the term "lived experience" is in itself shite (not criticising you, OP)?

It's just "experience", isn't it? And here's the thing - transwomen have a certain amount of experience as 'transwomen', but the vast majority of their experience is as 'men'. That makes their 'experience' massively, irrevocably different from mine.

Any 'oppression' a person experiences as a man is not remotely the same as that experienced by a woman from the moment of her birth.

Any 'oppression' a transwoman experiences from the time at which their transness is apparent to oppressors is still different.

I’ve posted a comment on a meme on a public page I follow asking people if they’re happy to share a bathroom with transgender people so am fully expecting some backlash. Am in full on fuck it mode today so couldn’t help pointing out the implications of self id. Tiny steps but guess they all count.

The thing is, lots of people will say "Yes, fine" on the bathroom/public toilets issue.

Ask them if they're happy for their teenage daughters to be made to shower with a teenage boy who identifies as a girl - or for themselves (if they're women), daughters, etc to have to share changing rooms and showers at the gym with men who self-id as women - and you might get a different response.

Yeah myself personally I'm happy to share a public toilet with a man or a transperson.

However what I'm not happy about is that if I wasn't I would not be able to refuse without coming off as a bigot.

Myself I'm personally okay with a man or a transperson in changing rooms as long as they're cubicled e.g. Like family rooms at swimming baths

Not happy that I'd be a bigot if I wasn't comfortable

Myself I'm comfortable with a male or trans gynaecologist, midwife, counsellor

Myself I'm personally okay with tons of things... but what if I wasn't? Simply because I am a woman I would not be listened to and called a bigot

It’s the complete lack of empathy and understanding of why women need their own space.

My lived experience tells me that men are predatory.

The vast majority of women I know have had an awful experience because of men.

Empathy is required here, not entitlement.

If trans women are women, they’d back the fuck off and support us. It would be far more beneficial all round.

Yes, OP, this is typical. Trans supporters know that trans ideology is unscientific and irrational and in the face of rational scepticism they rely on bludgeoning you with dubious statistics, emotional appeals and the suggestion that you're stupid if you don't get it.

Only a few days ago there was a thread here with an article by an assistant professor of philosophy at Nottingham University:

theconversation.com/can-a-woman-have-a-penis-how-to-understand-disagreements-about-gender-recognition-101991?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1535457048

that was so poorly-argued and demonstrated such sloppy thinking that it was almost laughable. When you think of all the people in positions of power who've swallowed this codswallop it's terrifying: how stupid are they and how stupid do they think we are?

Yup.

I’ve had one school mum start a ridiculously ignorant argument with me after I posted a link from Mayday. She argued the point that men are just as vulnerable as women and her husband regularly uses the ladies- I should be more concerned with ISIS terrorists - i shit you not.

And a couple of other school mums I know have unfollowed my posts and are being very offish with me. I know they think I’m transphobic.

It actually really gets to me sometimes and I question myself if I’m right in what I believe as ‘other’ people don’t seem that arsed. That ‘other’ people can’t see long enough down the road to see it effect their own daughters.

For you Standby...

Blimey, 2 likes and a comment agreeing with me on FB, I’m a bit gobsmacked

Thank you terryleather

booboo

I get zero likes but if I posted an apple pie I baked I know I’d get 30+ ... priorities hey..

I am extremely careful when discussing this with friends, but I also fundamentally do not agree that saying ‘women don’t have a penis’, is hate speech. It is a fact. A Trans woman might well have a penis along with other male body parts but that does not mean I have any hatred at all for them.

Blimey, 2 likes and a comment agreeing with me on FB, I’m a bit gobsmacked

I wonder if the tide has turned now, after everything that has happened in the last few weeks.

Standby, it's really dispiriting when you realise that some of your friends and acquaintances are not the thoughtful, intelligent people you thought they were.

I feel as if now I know how Naziism and Stalinism got a grip. You can persuade lot of people to believe anything — or if not actually believe it, to go along quietly like lambs to the slaughter.

The backlash has begun (surprise surprise!), I might need to dig out some links to the ‘this never happens’ stories I think 🤔

I feel as if now I know how Naziism and Stalinism got a grip. You can persuade lot of people to believe anything — or if not actually believe it, to go along quietly like lambs to the slaughter.

Yes. The real cleverness is calling it "transphobia" and "hate speech", which terrifies so many people that it completely shuts down the majority of discussion, let alone debate or dissent.

The sad thing is my friend is, on paper, quite clever, but prone in my view to some very unscientific view points. It's sad as a woman that she has fallen for such sloppy thinking.