Lived experience trumps yours ... discussion with a friend

[LePetitLarousse]

I'm quite new to these discussions, but from everything I've read here, I've come to agree with the gender critical position (or rather the GC position basically reflects what I've intuitively thought for a long time).

I have a friend who posts a lot about trans issues and I decided to ask privately why that was. I explained that I had come to take a GC position, and her argument was that one side was the oppressed - those who know what they`re talking about because of their lived experience, and that one side was trying to deny their existence. I replied that isn't that what many GC feminists are arguing. That the lived experiences of women matter too, and it women's spaces that are being lost. She retorted that it was nonsense, and anyway, didn't have the time to "tutor" me. I needed to read more about arguments against TERFs, and shared a terrible cartoon (Life of Bria).

What struck me was the absolute arrogance and certainty and unquestioning that her side of the debate was right, and anyone else needed to be tutored. Is this a common attitude experienced in discussing these issues?

Lived experience.

Like the trans widows?

Its not about how loud you shout.

The hatred towards women is worse than at any time before in my lifetime. Where before men who claimed to be civilised had to pretend they didn't hate us, now they've been emboldened because it's actually a virtue to abuse women and scream that they should be burned or raped or punched.

So true... it terrifies me for the next generation.... I had no idea I was living through a golden age, and just naively assumed it would go on getting better and better

I think a lot of actual women don't understand the GC position because they've never really thought about it

Why a delusional or possibly abusive man would understand it I don't know

Yes.
Especially the "you need to be educated" nonsense.
There is no thought given to whether the gender critical position might possibly be the result of having an in depth knowledge of both arguments. It isn't that we know too little, it's that we know too much.

I also know that most GC feminists can perfectly articulate the opposing tra position and arguments in all their illogical glory, whereas the genderbelievers cannot do the same of the GC position.
When you ask them what they think we believe, a whole mess of nonsense tumbles out which resembles nothing much of the actual GC position.

I arrived at my position through logic and a knowledge of science, but I find it comforting that my GC counterparts are so logical, intelligent, fair, analytical and articulate.

If your friend had a decent argument she’d have all the time in the world to “tutor” you. The fact she can’t attempt to put forward any points demonstrates her doubts that she would have anything robust to say.

ncforcommenting

Thats pretty much where i am

And apparently a terf and bigot for knowing biological facts...however uncomfortable

Absolutely.
'Go educate yourself' is the TRA response to anything they don't want to answer.
The TRAs I know well don't bother educating themselves on issues faced by less fashionable minority viewpoints.

It's proving rather a good dickhead filter. If a trans person / 'ally' recognises that yes, they might need to learn about the specific needs of people with dementia, or Makaton simplified signing for people with learning disabilities, or the underfunding of the social care system, they are probably someone I'll get on with on many levels, and have no particular concern about sharing space with.
The TRAs who shout 'EDUCATE YOURSELF' but think that this only goes one way, that the whole world must go study whatever pronouns they are using this week, and using last week's is 'literal violence'. They are telling you directly that they don't care about anyone except themselves.

'Go educate yourself' highlights the student politics of it all to be honest.

As a rule we a nation which is anti intellectual. Huge parts of the population don't value education in the same way that education is regarded as sacred and a way out of poverty. We didn't used to be like that but it's become increasingly common.

And irony it plays to the exact same sentiment that Owen Jones wrote about in terms of the 'demonisation of the chavs' - the 'ignorant, stupid working class neanderthals'.

'Go educate yourself' in this context is a comment on social superiority and status.

What struck me was the absolute arrogance and certainty and unquestioning that her side of the debate was right, and anyone else needed to be tutored. Is this a common attitude experienced in discussing these issues?

Have you ever seen a flicker of uncertainty on the board here?

Yep

Just seen this on Twitter; it says it all really

A woman is an adult human female.
An adult human female can't become a transwomen; if she transitions, she becomes a transman.
A man is an adult human male.
An adult human male can't become a transman; if he transitions, he becomes a transwoman.
So transwomen are not women

How can anyone argue against that?

And irony it plays to the exact same sentiment that Owen Jones wrote about in terms of the 'demonisation of the chavs' - the 'ignorant, stupid working class neanderthals'.

Oh yeah, for supposed champions of the underdogs they aren't doing a great job of hiding their classism.

I think we all need to keep going in whatever way we can.

When I first heard about selfID in April this year ( yes I live under a rock ) I thought great, being a lefty inclusive type.

But then a GC woman said something to me, “ it’s like they are taking over our bodies” I don’t particularly like her BTW. However I thought WTF is she on about and googled , came across Heather, watched a vid of her talking about this and the penny dropped about what it really meant.

Then I spoke to a friend who works with abused women and she was for it. I could not believe she was advocating changing rooms, Rape crisis, homeless hostels etc should embrace self ID. I gave examples of Danielle Miscato etc. Children given drugs, percentage of trans with penis, prisons ( I was told they are kept separately) I was dismissed on all points and told only 16 year olds and over are driven drugs, no one younger. It was so shocking to me. She simply wouldn’t listen. I was told to dail down my fear and did I really thing just any old man would walk into a single sex changing room and that they would be too intimated ?? She is so open minded and compassionate, it was really shocking but adamant that she was right.
In the end it came down to me saying, why can’t men/ women dress how they want, express how they want without having to be another gender, isn’t that more opened minded. Finally I said I did what did not want a penis in a shower next to me, or think girls should have to deal with that too. which feels so horrible and dehumanising to talk about people’s body parts. However this is what this whole issue often reduces the argument. I said I absolutely supported trans spaces and neutral spaces. Political representation, but take the place from a man !! They are over represented.

I was told I was sexist. It was so upsetting.
However it totally peaked me. And she did finally relent a little and maybe she will think about some stuff I said.
Basically it was no bebate and I was painted as a bigot.

However I dared to raise the issue with some LBG friends. There are totally against, feel LGBT had become totally T focused, but are too frightend to speak out. That gave me courage.

Sorry long post.

We are in a unique position in the UK as we have the examples of how this is playing out in Canada and the USA.

The more that speak out, the more it enables others to.

MN has been totally amazing for me to connect and further understand what is at stake.

I’m your fan girl !!

Someone who says 'dial down your fear' and men would be 'too intimidated' should not be working with abused women.

I know shocking isn’t it. But it was like she turned into a different person. Really !! She is so for women rights and safety and fighting for sexual abuse to be acknowledged.

It was totally bizarre. But you know it’s interesting, I think some of the stuff I said gave her food for thought.

It highlights the issue that this is painted as inclusion, when actually it will mean exclusion.

That’s the double speak we need to get through.

It’s been an interesting process for me as it highlights how arrogant I have been in the past about left wing politics and my refusal to listen to other points of view, because the left is always “ morally right, inclusive and compassionate”

This comes up again and again.

Trans activists can have all the discussions about gender that they want, and it's considered an actively good thing. An all-male panel is considered perfectly progressive, and indeed expert, because some of them wear nail polish.

But put women together, some of whom have the audacity to say "no" to men, and suddenly there's a call for "balance", and a need to bring in some "real experts" - male trans activists, of course - because women, bless them, have no experience of gender at all.....

I'm not on Facebook so don't have the same reach as most of you. When I've spoken to people about this they've looked at me as though I'm crazy as how would a man ever think he could turn into a woman! It might be that it's because I live in a sleepy market town that is very conservative. I spend quite a lot of time in London and have been asked if it's another of those crazy ideas that London folk have

I've also peak transed my mother to such an extent that she's asked DH to print her some nice stickers up (she's never broken the law in her life so it must be bad ).

Yes, yes and yes, have heard all of this, too. "Educate yourself". Trouble is, when I started educating myself I saw how utterly devoid of respect and compassion extreme transactivism is. How it has become about violating boundaries that are there for a good reason.

And I see more than one parallel to the cavalier way in which left-wing political groups in the 1970s and early 1980s indulged men who tried to 'normalise' sexual relations with children, to abolish laws that protected minors, all while saying that refusing to accept this abuse was 'exclusionary'.

A woman is an adult human female.
An adult human female can't become a transwomen; if she transitions, she becomes a transman.
A man is an adult human male.
An adult human male can't become a transman; if he transitions, he becomes a transwoman.
So transwomen are not women

How can anyone argue against that?

They can't. They don't have a bipedal leg to stand on. They'll just block you and call you a transphobe.

It’s been an interesting process for me as it highlights how arrogant I have been in the past about left wing politics and my refusal to listen to other points of view, because the left is always “ morally right, inclusive and compassionate”

Me too, although I started to realise this with Rotherham etc. And with the push for "sex work is work".

I spend quite a lot of time in London and have been asked if it's another of those crazy ideas that London folk have

This is what my mum thinks I have peak transed her and she has no truck with gender identity nonsense but she regularly tells me off for getting so angry about it!

Yes. Typical 'Liberal elite' position. The reasoning goes 'but I am so open minded, the BBC agrees with me so how could I be wrong?'. You see this a lot in young white middle class people who haven't lived much in respect of all kinds of political opinions.

booboopidoo a starting point for digging out never happen links. Feel free to add more!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread?pg=1&order=

Have you ever seen a flicker of uncertainty on the board here?

You mean all those threads where women who have grown up holding to liberal ideals and fought for gay rights and women's liberation were honest about how difficult it was to find themselves standing against a purportedly liberal rights cause?

Or all those posts from women who state clearly that they started out being totally onside with all things trans until they started getting shat on and it slowly dawned on them that certain people were actually nasty unyielding bastards?

And how those honest admissions of doubt and changes of mind were seized on by TRAs and gloated over as a perceived weakness?

More than a bloody flicker.

How can anyone argue against that?
Apparently by ditching the initial definition. "A woman is .... it's complicated." According to transactivist-ish friend.