Andrew Gilligan in The Times - sex pests target unisex change rooms

[CAAKE]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sex-pests-target-women-in-mixed-changing-rooms-x3vw2lnv8

I don't know how to do a share token, sorry, but Andrew has nailed it again 👏

"The majority of alleged sexual attacks at Britain’s public swimming pools and sports centres occur in unisex changing rooms, according to data obtained by The Sunday Times.
Nine out of ten changing-room sexual complaints relate to incidents in unisex facilities — although they make up less than half of all provision.
Gender-neutral changing is growing as councils seek to cut staff costs and cater to transgender people. But one MP said it was a “magnet” for sex offenders and increased the risk to women and girls."

Back when I was a (mature) student, when camera phones were just coming in, I had a friend who was a lifeguard at the local pool. Separate sex changing rooms. He said there were known perverts with a habit of trying to spy on/photograph young boys, and when they arrived, the staff would make sure someone went into the men's changing rooms to "mop the floor" or similar so they knew they were being watched and couldn't get up to anything. Why there are people out there so naive they don't realise these things go on I don't know.

Going back to wet/dry changing. My local leisure centre has a unisex pool side changing area, with it seems a permanent presence of a staff member mopping. It is very easy to see people in this space, but the changing is all cubicles. I've been there many many times without incident, but there was one single time I came across a naked man just walking through. I reported him to a member of staff and they zoomed off to deal with it. There are showering and toilets off the changing area - these are single sex.
The dry changing area has no cubicles, just lockers and benches in a room. All dry areas are single sex.
Apart from the one naked man this does seem to work and allows families to change for swimming more easily.

I fucking hate changing villages. Dark, dingy, horrid cramped little cubicals, narrow walkways with men lingering and people stood in the way.

I much prefer a communal single sex changing room.

Pools should have communal mens, communal womens and family areas with large cubicals for adults with kids only.

silentcrow

I just didn't get why the dry changing was single sex and the wet changing was mixed sex. I'm assuming it's to do with space?

I understand that these are billed for families, which is fine. But then don't families do dry sports together as well?

I just couldn't work out why the changing rooms when you get completely naked are the ones where you have to share with the opposite sex (in the article).

Many people may just change their shoes for dry sports. There is not the same need for family changing rooms,.

However this is a previous thread about Swim England's now withdrawn guidance. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3160512-Engaging-trans-people-in-swimming-aka-penises-are-ok-in-the-ladys-changing-rooms-but-transmen-must-cover-their-breasts?pg=1

I just didn't get why the dry changing was single sex and the wet changing was mixed sex. I'm assuming it's to do with space?

Maybe because dry changing rooms are aimed at adults - say, a gym - or tend to be sports with sex-based divisions or competitions? Like football. And maybe there's a historical reason for some sports - tennis clubs tend not to be new builds, so even if you go as a family they'll be segregated because that's how it was built in the 50s or whatever.

Swimming (well, pool swimming for fun) is a really mixed activity that covers everyone from baby to granny and grandpa. Competition and outdoor swimming is usually a different story and properly segregated (even if it's just a tent flapping in the breeze ). Actually our newish pools also have group changing rooms where school kids are split up by sex, but these aren't for the public - they even have a separate staircase access and the public section is locked off from the visiting school. I think that's quite good in safeguarding terms.

I know from jobs I had in the 2000s that government-funded capital projects (under the last Labour gvt) had a huge emphasis on community use; if they were giving you money, you'd better be damn sure it was accessible to all! Perhaps unisex changing rooms are part of that legacy/fad as many would have been developed in that period.

Do you think this person is being sarcastic?

Josephine O'Carroll is trans & has posted on MN in the past. I don't think that comment's sarcastic.

Sports England have guidelines:

www.sportengland.org/facilities-planning/design-and-cost-guidance/

And to their credit, they appear to refer to sex, not gender, throughout.

Pleased to see him used mixed-sex and unisex through it.

Andrew's a good'un. Clever man.

There seems to be more and more journalists writing articles giving people the necessary information to fill in surveys and consultations at the moment, doesn't there.

What a surprise! Who would have thought?

But unisex changing rooms aren't quite the same as female+trans changing rooms. The report doesn't say so I assume the voyeurs in the article were men dressed as men in unisex spaces. The trans lobby would say voyeurs dressing as women to access women+trans spaces is unlikely/not a problem.

Really informative article. It is tricky striking a balance between making it safe for everyone and encouraging the community to use the facilities. I do worry re my son who is 6 and very immature. I am dreading the day I have to send him into the toilets or changing rooms by himself although I know I can’t take him in with me for forever...

Except they don't have to dress as anything. Just be totally male presenting.

The problem is a voyeur can instantly claim they are trans and women can't do anything about it. It's a different rule for trans people. That's the problem.

Safety obviously comes first in that balance!

As always - the argument here is:

-Males perpetrated 98% of rape or sexual assault by penetration in 2017 (See ONS). They are overrepresented in terms of: paedophilia, paraphilias, violence, etc. As a group. Not all males (of course!), but as a category they present a higher risk than females (who yes, are also capable of horrific acts but are underrepresented in such crimes) statistically.
-All trans women are biological males (by definition, in order to be "trans" they have to have something to transition from)
-The current definition of "trans" includes "non-binaries" and "cross-dressers," in other words "trans" now means "anyone who says they are." They may or may not choose to put on a dress. They could just say they identify as a "butch trans lesbian" - someone who presents exactly like your bog-standard straight man but wants to be called she and bully lesbians into having sex with a "lady dick". It's not just the gender-dysphoric transsexuals anymore. Our lesbian sisters are the canary in the coal mine here. We should notice what's happening to them in LGBTQ+ spaces, and push back on this dangerous ideology.
-I have seen no credible evidence that a male uttering the words "I identify as a woman" reduces their sex-based statistical risk of offending (in fact, the only paper I have seen seems to provide evidence to the opposite conclusion, and that was in a group of completely medically transitioned individuals). Show me the evidence that male "femme non-binaries" or "cross-dressers" have the same crime rates as females (not males) and I will change my mind. Anectodal evidence collected by feminists actually tell the opposite story (here's looking at you, Dana Rivers et al).
-If "trans" means "anyone who says they are trans" that means it has to include all the complete psychopaths like Ian Huntley who "say they are women" because they are manipulative dangerous offenders. Because you have no way of saying "no you're not trans," because all you have to do to be trans now is say you are. So that means there is no distinction now between such individuals and your Laverne Coxes.
-Many in the current trans activist movement actively campaign to make spaces "gender neutral" in order to cater to the "non-binaries."
-The trans activists wanting access to female spaces react very violently to women saying no. Not exactly something that encourages an open-door policy to these very threatening individuals, quite frankly... If I see someone wanting to bash women with a barbed wire baseball bat, I don't want them anywhere near female spaces.

In summary, all roads end in mixed-sex spaces.

This article shows us this is (like everyone knows) a BAD idea for women/children.

I would also be VERY curious to find out about the 14 cases in single-sex spaces and what the context was.... Because if they had anything to do with gender self-ID policies (not saying they did, but IF), that would be very interesting.

This will be very useful for my consultation response. Thanks Andrew!

Well I know of at least one that happened in a single sex space:

www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/16611539.darren-senior-of-eastborough-crescent-dewsbury-jailed-for-voyeurism-and-sexual-assault-of-child-at-tong-recreation-centre-and-richard-dunn-sports-centre/?ref=mr&lp=9

TLDR; he told a family they would have to use the men’s changing facilities to more easily access a young girl to sexually assault her, as he could more legitimately be in that space.

Imagine if someone like this more easily had access to a unisex space, or, could legitimately explain his presence in a female-only space?

Echoing my thanks to those who offered share tokens and to Andrew Gilligan and The Times for reporting on this.

heterosexual males and females, not those who are transgender

Being trans and sexual orientation are two separate issues. One can be trans and heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or asexual.

The trans lobby would say voyeurs dressing as women to access women+trans spaces is unlikely/not a problem.

Putting on a frock or lipstick does not change a man into a woman.

Katya
That case is horrific... Shows also how the sick perpetrator planned it all out to normalize his presence in the same changing room as the victim. What a brave 8 year old girl.

The trans lobby would say voyeurs dressing as women to access women+trans spaces is unlikely/not a problem.

And their evidence to back this up...?

Oh, I forgot, no evidence needed. It's all about the feelz.

It's all such BS.
They are the ones wanting to change the law. They should be the ones providing evidence of their outlandish nonsensical claims, not make us have to keep defending obvious basic facts.
No, the definitions of sex/male/female, reality of basic reproductive biology, and the fact of male violence are not up for debate.
You cannot force everyone to accept your ideology.

They should be the ones providing evidence of their outlandish nonsensical claims, not make us have to keep defending obvious basic facts.

Indeed. All they do is state over and over again: "Transwomen are women." As if stating it was all that was needed. As the late Christopher Hitchens said: That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

This article was in late editions of the online Times yesterday but is now in the Sunday Times, if anyone wants to find it in the paper or app.