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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why aren't "Skeptics" sceptical about the ability to "change sex"

43 replies

2rebecca · 31/08/2018 00:09

Saw the skeptic movement mentioned on another thread. I'd not heard of them until my son went to Glasgow and went to some of their meetings.
They sounded an interesting movement and as a scientist and feminist I watched to see them display some scepticism towards gender ideology.
It never happened and he's now been there 4 years.
All they are sceptical about is religion and woo.
They either way are afraid of discussing gender theory or are lot very sceptical at all but just another group of woke blokes pretending to engage their critical faculties

OP posts:
Charliethefeminist · 31/08/2018 09:12

I found this on Steve Novella theness.com/neurologicablog I've never heard of him before

Anlaf · 31/08/2018 09:43

YY to Kathleen Stock - and Jane Clare Jones! And Rebecca Reilly Cooper! And there are other marvellous feminist philosophers publicly on board with gender criticism.

Read the comments on this thread and take heart:

dailynous.com/2018/08/27/derogatory-language-philosophy-journal-hostility-discussion/

(Backstory: transwoman academic writes academic paper using word TERF, it gets published in journal, this letter challenging the use of TERF gets published, and now we can admire the patience and brilliance of RRC, JCJ and others).

AspieAndProud · 31/08/2018 09:48

Long time lurker and skeptic here. I'd just like to correct a few points raised earlier about so-called Elevatorgate. This is a reference to the fall out to Rebecca Watson's embarrassing encounter in an elevator at a skeptic conference.

Firstly, there was no harassment in the lift, horrific or otherwise. Watson never claimed that there was. She had an awkward encounter with some nerd who invited her for coffeee. She turned him down and that was it. Later she chose to raise the matter in her address to the conference. Her comment on the incident was 'Guy's, don't do that.' The fall out over the matter was about the amount of discussion that followed online afterwards. There was certainly some mysogyny in that but there was no 'horrific' elevator incident and Watson never claimed there was.

Secondly Watson isn't gender critical, she's trans inclusive. She has written extensively in support of transwomen, access to changing rooms, etc.

Thirdly she's part of the same identitarian axis as Danielle Muscato. A few years back when Mark Schierbecker, the autistic student assaulted by lecturer Melissa Click for refusing to stop filming at a protest on a US campus, appeared as a guest at a skeptic conference, Muscato, who was supposed to be representing Schierbecker as his PR agent, turned on his own client in front of the audience and forced him to publicly apologise for his 'white privilege' (presumably being autistic doesn't cancel out his whiteness), at which point Schierbecker was reduced to tears (ironically Schierbecker later transitioned himself).

Watson was one of the prime movers in the shaming campaign that followed this incident, which is when I became aware of both her and Muscato. Although I am a skeptic I am not involved in US skepticism. My interest is in neurodiversity. It was the hate campaign she participated in against a young Aspie that drew my attention to her.

AspieAndProud · 31/08/2018 10:16

Incidentally, Watson is also closely associated PZ Myers who runs FreeThoughBlogs. Ophelia Benson, a philosopher and gender critical feminist, used to post on FTB until she refused to say unequivocally 'Transwomen are women.' Some others followed.

FTB went fullly trans-inclusive (i.e. anti-women) about 5 years ago. However Myers doesn't speak for the broader skeptic community. Several atheist and skeptic organisations have formally disassociated themselves from his 'hate filled rhetoric' including both Atheist Ireland and Atheist Northern Ireland. It's really only the FTB and it's associates (The Orbit, Rebecca Watson's Skepchicks, etc) that have bought into transideology. The rest might not be gender critical - often far from it - but they are not remotely taken in by trans ideology.

FermatsTheorem · 31/08/2018 10:26

Anlaf that's a great letter. And Ernest Sosa has just gone way down in my estimation of him with his response. The "TERF" is like "Jew" comparison is shocking - as one of the commentators says, no woman calls herself "TERF" (other than ironically). Also, his line "Don't get in bed with the far right over this, no matter how much you want to 'win' . You have no idea how you are being used to try and achieve that goal, and what it might unleash. It would be a pyrrhic victory" - fuck me, you'd think the editor of a philosophy journal would know of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

Thanks for the clarification about the Rebecca Watson case, Aspie - I couldn't remember the details. I think my general point still stands though - that it's fairly well documented that quite large sections of the sceptic/atheist community have a big problem with misogyny.

FermatsTheorem · 31/08/2018 10:28

Cross-post with your second comment, Aspie - I don't mean to imply it's a majority viewpoint, or that it's worse in sceptic circles than in the population at large - just that misogyny is so woven into the fabric of our society that nowhere, even movements supposedly dedicated to the defence of rational thought, are free from it.

AspieAndProud · 31/08/2018 12:36

I think there's two issues. One is whether the skeptical community has a mysogyny problem and the other is trans-ideology. Whether people think evolutionary psychology is sexist or not, no supporter of evolutionary psychology has supported trans-ideology. There's simply no evolutionary advantage for being trans. You can qualify for the Darwin Award (awarded to those who take themselves out of the gene pool through their own - usually fatal - behaviour) just as easily by becoming voluntarily sterile as you can by killing yourself trying to invent jet-propelled boots.

BertrandRussell · 31/08/2018 12:42

The lift incident was minor. The fall out following it was appalling.

I do hope nobody is trying to minimise that.

AspieAndProud · 31/08/2018 13:35

I'm not trying to minimise it, I'm pointing out that the Watson, Myers & Muscato axis are no friends to gender critical feminists, the treatment of Ophelia Benson* being a prime example of what they do to their own when they fall out of step. They also support no platforming, blocklists and violence against their political opponents. Some of those behind blockbot post at FTB. Myers has even blogged about his fantasies about stabbing a priest on his deathbed if he caught one praying over him. These are Not Nice People.

  • Benson was co-author of Why Truth Matters, btw, which is well worth reading for anyone who doesn't buy in to identity politics wholesale and is concerned with how it is affecting academia.
arranfan · 31/08/2018 13:43

Andy Lewis benefited hugely from being able to bring (I think) pro bono legal advice from Dave Allen Green to the table in some of the legal actions brought against him.

I'm surprised at Ben Goldacre tho' - does someone have a screenshot? Is it clear BG knows who AC is?

lecanardnoir123 · 31/08/2018 21:56

Hi @arranfan. And thanks for all the kind words above. But just to note, was Robert Dougans of Bryan Cave and Jonathan Price of Doughty Street who were so very generous over the legal issues myself and Melanie Byng suffered.

arranfan · 31/08/2018 22:02

Hello lecanardnoir - I can't think which thread I've quoted this on (it's probably one about the private prosecutions or actions against some women) but have the various legal actions in which you're embroiled been dragging out for 6 years or so now (other side amending charges, appealing, not paying costs etc.)?

I can't think what stress this has caused your family and those round you.

PS - I"m tagging @CesiraAndEnrico as she will be thrilled you've dropped in here!

howonearthdidwegethere · 31/08/2018 22:08

Well, well, well. The Edinburgh "Skeptics" are also sipping the Kool Aid:

www.edinburghskeptics.co.uk/writeup-kate-cross-the-science-of-sex-differences/

As I've said on another thread (forget which), the Scottish capital has gone from City of Enlightenment to Hotbed of Stupid in a cool few hundred years.

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 31/08/2018 22:16

I am generally a fan of the Badscience forum (Ben Goldacre no longer has anything to do with it) and have learned lots there, but there’s a bit of misogyny there which has led to some punch-ups between the regulars, and in as much as it’s discussed, the hivemind has bought into the transwomen are women no debate ideology.

It’s possible the GC posters are silent on the subject, but some of the very smart and lovely women who I would expect to be GC seem not to be. It makes me constantly question whether I’m one of the baddies, tbh.

arranfan · 31/08/2018 22:20

It makes me constantly question whether I’m one of the baddies, tbh

Did you see the previous threads here on which posters were asked if they ever second-guessed themselves or reflected on the question if we're the bad guys or will eventually find ourselves on the 'wrong side of history'?

CesiraAndEnrico · 31/08/2018 22:21

lecanardnoir123

I owe you a pair court side seat tickets if DS makes it to Seria A or the NBA. Just remember to duck (geddit !) when the huge people chasing a bag of wind look like they are about to fly into the crowd. Grin

arranfan · 31/08/2018 22:26

WiseUpJanetWeiss - in case you hadn't seen the threads, one was: Are we the baddies?

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 01/09/2018 08:51

Yes I did arranfan . It’s a question I ask myself about many subjects to be fair, but oddly this is one where I find it difficult to understand the other position.

I am absolutely for everyone presenting however they like, and absolutely against discrimination against men who want to wear traditionally feminine clothing. I am absolutely in favour of people being treated with compassion, and obtaining medical treatment for their difficulties.

But I can’t believe 2+2=5, and really struggle with understanding how rational scientists can.

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