Is gender 100% bullshit? Or not

[speakingwoman]

Big question!

So, biology is a stable reality (I have been reading the well-written Hands Across the Aisle site)

Some bits of biology are visible and tangible e.g. our wider hips.

That changes some behaviours (our gait is different to men’s gaits).

And our hormone mix is different.

Where does biology stop and gender start?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate

A summary of pinkers book.

I don’t think you are computing the danger of saying ‘all behaviour is socialised’

Biological sex is not binary. Not all females gestate. Not all can. Not all males are dominant. Some females are dominant. There are thousands of intersex conditions. In fact, unless you have had your chromosomes and hormone sensitivity levels tested, any one of us could have an intersex condition, regardless of whether we have successfully procreated, and not know about it.

This isn't correct. To be female is to be 'of the class' that can bear young. Biology is very messy and things go wrong. If you have issues with fertility you aren't suddenly male. Your sex will still be easily discernible.

To be intersex is extremely rare. For most people, as far as I'm aware, it's either immediately obvious at birth or you don't go through a normal puberty, for example. My friend with a Disorder of Sexual Development has no breasts and she is infertile. (Turner syndrome) along with there being other physical symptoms. Very few people are going to get beyond their twenties without realising they have a DSD. I'm sure it happens but not often.

Biological sex is binary!

Why do you work so hard to deny this?

The ‘more emotional’ thing about women could relate to the fact that women score consistently higher on the ‘neutoticism’ Scale on the Big 5 than men. Literally meaning that women are more susceptible to emotions.

You said 'it's worth looking at the facts'

The whole concept of neuroticism is from the 19th century although it is rooted in ideas which emerged before then. The word comes from 'neurosis' and 'erotic' ie it is a condition in part caused by a woman's sexual organs and desires as well as their menstrual cycle, which are all supposedly inherently unnatural.

Neuroticism itself is a social construct and a highly misogynistic one at that

Neuroticism in psychology on the Big 5 is not what you describe

It is a globally accepted way in which to measure personality and their differences but you seem sure it’s just made up, how?

Men often fall in love with their babies too. They can't breastfeed but they can be just as nurturing as the mother.

There are studies that suggest children with devoted dads are at an advantage. Obviously the same is true of mothers but it's perhaps not something you'd automatically assume about dads.

I'd guess this is partly instinctual and partly learned. Nurturing their child tends to go with being protective of their child's mother. This is all to do with men being so much stronger. Society tries to ameliorate male sexual aggression by teaching men to protect women from other men and urging them not to use their strength against women. Doesn't work in many cases, sadly, but the intent is there.

As children benefit by having both parents around as they grow up, there are social pressures to encourage that.

Human beings are unusual in how long it takes us to raise our young to maturity. I'd guess quite a chunk of male behaviour around their offspring is instinctual rather than learned, simply because it increases their chance of successfully rearing a child and thereby spreading their genes

mooncup we can't tell who your posts are in response to.

There is no " globally accepted way in which to measure personality ".

And if there was, it would have been different ten years ago and different ten years hence.

speakingwoman

The Big 5 is over 60 years old and is the widely accepted and validated personality measure globally

Even if you want to claim it’s not appropriate / makes you uncomfortable, it IS measuring something, they are absolutely valid statistical constructs and just dismissing them because they don’t fit your ideology isn’t sensible

@alldayinbed

I'm not saying all male violence and aggression is innate and so they should get a "get out a jail free card". But to say male aggression is wholly due to socialisation is wrong. I think it's a complex issue including a combination of nurture, socialisation and instinctual behaviour.

Alot of violent men are so mainly because they learnt the behaviour from their fathers. But if we castrated all boys in infancy, would we see the same patterns of violence repeated?

You are passionate, mooncup, but you do not convince.

There it is.....

However, I see we are on the same page about biological sex being binary.

Can I come back to the hormones issue? I really challenge the idea that our behaviour is universally affected by hormones. Just because we feel emotional when our hormones are imbalanced and causing problems (eg PMT used to cause me to feel emotional/aggressive) doesn't mean we are equally affected by our hormones all the time or that our general character is affected by them, despite the fact that my normal hormone mix is totally different from yours.

all behaviours are socialised

Truly, that is so incredibly naive. It’s a nice clean thought but so incredibly incorrect it’s scary that you go around thinking that.

I don't think there's any need to be scared. Of course human behaviours are socialised. Young learn from adults. They observe and then practice until they have learned enough to become independent from their carers. Everything around us is socialised from birth. Everything.

speaking if you take time to notice whilst you're about your daily business, you will see genderised behaviour everywhere. Especially in the way adults treat and speak to children differently, depending on their sex.

It's a really interesting discussion and something that I have also wrestled with mentally a great deal.

I think anyone who doesn't recognise the incredible fragility and vulnerability of a newborn baby has an impairment but many people are afraid of this and so nurturing is the furthest thing from from their mind.

I feel a similar way about other people's babies myself, I don't feel any need to care for them if their actual parents are right there. I can see the baby is safe and so why would I want to get involved. I instinctively desired to care for my own babies and so did my (male) partner, but other people's babies usually leave me rather cold.

But if I found an abandoned baby crying in a park I would pick it up and cuddle it without thinking. I would feel a very strong desire to comfort and protect the baby. The same if I read about a baby being mistreated. Can't we also call this a nurturing instinct? I think in this sense almost all humans, men and women, have a strong nurturing instinct and there is something very wrong with humans who do not have it, who would leave the crying baby. Or is this a different kind of instinct all together, since I wouldn't feel the long-term desire to actually raise that abandoned baby myself?

Being socialised is different from blank slate (all behaviour is entirely nurture), which do you mean Fairenuff?

What do you mean? You can observe for yourself how people treat each other according to gender. I can see it with my own eyes.

Who ever says 'that's a pretty top' to a little boy. No one.

But little girls get this message over and over as they grow up.

OP is asking the difference between sex and gender.

Neuroticism in psychology on the Big 5 is not what you describe

I am guessing that was aimed at my comment about the history of neuroticism?

I appreciate that neuroticism as part of the Big 5 is no longer linked specifically to one's womb/genitals/menstruation but I think psychologists should be very aware of the origins of it as a label. It hasn't emerged from nowhere out of the ether. It is very much rooted in misogyny. It is connected specifically to a diagnosis of hysteria.

And anyway - looking at it in the context of the Big 5, surely it is still impossible to say it is an inherent character trait more common in females as opposed to something which emerges in someone because of society. Women are more likely to score highly as neurotic, right? Women are more likely to be victims of sexual assault/domestic violence etc. etc. Take those completely out of society before you judge whether women are just inherently neurotic, please.

It is connected specifically to a diagnosis of hysteria.

Sorry that should have said it was

Even in around 1995 there was a doctor writing how neuroticism is a female trait and the bigger your hips the more neurotic you were likely to be and the lower pain threshold you might have.

I defer to Titania's judgement on this matter

Even in around 1995 there was a doctor writing how neuroticism is a female trait and the bigger your hips the more neurotic you were likely to be and the lower pain threshold you might have. hmm

Ha. Why do I read that as 'the bigger your hips, the less I'm going to listen to your issues and deal with them, including pain managment'

*according to gender stereotypes that should have said in my post above.

Sex is a very simple biological fact which is recognised worldwide, has been throughout time and across all cultures. On the whole it is easy to determine the sex of a child at birth.

Gender is a social construct which many women reject.

Fairenuff, I do indeed see it everywhere.

but that doesn't answer my question

Is gender 100% bullshit?

Yes, I think so. We could live just fine without it people having to present or behave a certain way just to reflect their sex.

fair enough fairenuff!

It isn't bullshit ìn my opinion. It is a real phenomenon. Most people I meet in day to day life are highly gendered and most parents I know are adhering to gender related expectations to a greater or lesser extent as they raise their children. It is possible to make generalisations about male and female behaviours but all such generalisations serve to reinforce gender norms and are therefore sometimes unhelpful (but sometimes necessary)