Is gender 100% bullshit? Or not

[speakingwoman]

Big question!

So, biology is a stable reality (I have been reading the well-written Hands Across the Aisle site)

Some bits of biology are visible and tangible e.g. our wider hips.

That changes some behaviours (our gait is different to men’s gaits).

And our hormone mix is different.

Where does biology stop and gender start?

I think this is a really interesting subject. Another example where maybe sex and gender cross over is that at a population level women are smaller and weaker than men. Stereotypically women are also more likely to be people pleasers, non-agressive unless northern , conflict resolvers etc. But is this actually a behaviour stemming from sex so men don't beat us up?

Ooh that’s a good point Fairenuff.

And is many beating up women a gendered behaviour or is it sex based - because they are bigger they can and this has always been the way, and always will be ? (God that's a depressing thought)

I've found myself more confused about what exactly 'gender' is. I'm increasingly convinced it is more about assigning behaviours & presentation to different sexes, and if we differ from what is currently perceived as the 'norm' then it can be used to create insecurity and to discriminate.
I can't get my head around the idea of gender identity. Do I 'feel' like a woman? I just feel like me. Does discrimination against women make me rage? Yes it really really does.

poster ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Yes.
We must be getting closer to cause (rather than effect) when we start thinking about size difference.

Let’s jusr say that it is biological that women like nurturing

Why? It's not true. You may have been socialised to think this but there is no reason to presume that.

Yes, indeed, I think that's a very interesting point - we talk about 'gender' as a construct, and there's an element of deliberate artifice in that idea.

But what if the basis and outworking of gender is more fundamental and sinister than cultural conditioning, and therefore even more important to destroy as a concept?

What if our gendered female and male behaviour arose from the worst instincts of human nature - the drive to rape and dominate creating the networking for safety and appeasement characteristics in males and females respectively?

This 'innate' version of gender is no more to be respected than any other base instinct to do harm.

(I'm thinking aloud now, tbh. Please pick apart my thoughts at your leisure, I'm very willing to refine my thinking)

It comes from being smaller and weaker doesn’t it?
And oppression comes from being bigger and stronger
And Madonna-worship comes from there being one big thing we can do that the bigger stronger ones cant.

Yes

Yes floral I follow....

I know where you're coming from OP. I have been thinking about these issues a lot lately.

I'm not a scientist but I'm prepared to accept that there may be biological differences between the sexes that have contributed to what we see as gender.

However it is impossible to unpick most things that are biologically determined from things that are culturally determined because we are an immensely complex species with layers and layers of culture and history (as well as biology) which make us who we are.

And because those things are so complex and so entwined and so impossible to unpick, I'm just not prepared to buy into any claims for "gender" differences.

So I'll happily accept (of course) that my sons have penises and that they will (probably) be able to father children. And I obviously accept that they don't have vaginas and will never bear children. And I take the scientists words for it that their hormonal make up is different from that of my nieces.

But I will not accept that son #2 is sporty and physical "because" he is a boy. Or that son #1 was a particularly difficult toddler "because" he's a boy. Or that son #3 has been a PITA to toilet train "because" he's a boy (all these things have been suggested on more than one occasion).

Nor do I think that son #1 is not a "typical" boy because he has always been good at reading. Same for #2 who is nurturing and caring. And for #3 who loves dancing and dressing up.

I have three children, all very different because they have different personalities. They could not be more different if they were different sexes. I am trying to raise them to be unconfined by "gender", although from the moment I knew their sex (at 20 weeks gestation) other people have been foisting gender stereotypes onto them.

Women are oppressed because of their sex.

That is them being physically smaller and weaker.

That is them being the sex that gestates and feeds babies.

That is them being sexually attractive to males.

It's because of their sex, not their gender.

But in which case is male violence sex or gender? Does society condition men to be violent towards women, or is it innate. Do men choose to be violent, or do they choose to not be violent? Is there a default?

I think it's really important to note that the biological divergence in humans between male and female is very small compared with the animal kingdom. In a study of brain scans, only the most divergent few percentage (2-4%) of scans are clearly male or female. All the rest could be either sex. In studies of biological differences between the sexes the statistical thresholds are so much lower - we generally WANT to find difference rather than sameness. biological sex functions as a spectrum (the interaction between chromosomes and hormones Place everyone somewhere between 'male' and 'female').

• high heels were for a long time worn more by men than women and signified that the wearer has servants- the foot wear was to impractical to do anything for yourself. We have a huge tendency to look for biological grounding in cultural trends.

It's interesting that we tend to hugely focus on what is different across the sexes, and not on what is the same. (Actually most things).

The biological reality of women's vulnerability and male strength is the basis for the framework of control that developed around sex roles and became traditions, aka gender.

“What if our gendered female and male behaviour arose from the worst instincts of human nature - the drive to rape and dominate creating the networking for safety and appeasement characteristics in males and females respectively?”

Yes.
“Construct” is way too complex a concept to be the first cause. It’s size and strength isn’t it?

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine
General societal trend- men are ten times more likely to kill than women are.

If we take a man from a very safe society, a Swede perhaps, and compare him with a woman from somewhere with a very high per capita murder rate- Mexico for example, she is statistically much more dangerous than he is.

This indictates that men aren't innately more violent, culture and society has a bigger effect.

OP take a listen to The Infinite Monkey cage podcast, battle of the sexes. Covers this stuff really well.

Yes, gendered behaviour is a result of physical sexual attributes and attitudes that have developed because of those physical differences.

Ofew,
I understand that as a pragmatic working strategy.
I’m just going back a bit...

allday

How is this:

biological sex functions as a spectrum (the interaction between chromosomes and hormones Place everyone somewhere between 'male' and 'female').

Consistent with this:

It's interesting that we tend to hugely focus on what is different across the sexes, and not on what is the same. (Actually most things). ?

Your first statement suggests "female" at one end of a spectrum and "male" at another.

But is the male violence gendered behaviour innate? Do men have "animal" programming which tells them to rape and hurt women (maybe why they are bigger evolutionary) Do men have to choose to overcome this innate programming, or is male violence purely a product of external influences during their life ?

.But in which case is male violence sex or gender?”

Neither, I think. It’s just the default strategy of larger animals surely? Which sucks for us...

Yes, gendered behaviour is a result of physical sexual attributes and attitudes that have developed because of those physical differences

But not all gendered behaviour eg pink/blue changes across time/societies. Other gendered behaviour eg male dominance doesnt. Different types of gendered behavior? Apols for incoherence - thinking as I write

“The biological reality of women's vulnerability and male strength is the basis for the framework of control that developed around sex roles and became traditions, aka gender.”

Ah, ok. So now I have to move from big animal/small animal and factor in other stuff.

Does “sex roles” mean what happens during the sexual act?

Not.