Who is feminism about and for?

[JellySlice]

Why is feminism - of any flavour - expected to centre anyone that is not female?

Etymology is very revealing. Feminism is for females. That's it.

The only reason that anyone thinks males should be considered is that female socialisation tells us to be nice and put other people (especially men) before ourselves. And that is one of things we fight against.

Feminism is about and for the liberation of females from the oppression of patriarchal society and gender within it.

So in intersectional feminism it's not the intersection that is centred, it's still the femaleness?

Intersectional feminism relates other axes of oppression to the female experience, to understand how, say, black females have experiences that cannot simply be accounted for by examining race or sex in isolation.

So yes, femaleness is necessary!

yes, but it's other oppressions that intersect (as in layer, not as in meet at a corner) with being female.

ie AND, not OR.

Intersectional feminism is being abused by men. It was only ever about recognising other forms of oppression that affect women too, such as racism, class. It was never about men.

Although I have argued that feminism can benefit men too - breaking down gender barriers benefits everyone. For example, the saying 'men don't cry' - why can't they? They are socialised to be 'strong' and 'stiff upper lip' - which can be harmful to mental health.

But still, feminism is the liberation of women from patriarchal oppression.

Intersectional feminism is being abused by men. It was only ever about recognising other forms of oppression that affect women too, such as racism, class. It was never about men.

This. But of course adult human females aka women aren't allowed to have a liberation movement that centres them.

No, that would be ridiculously selfish, Eresh.

Feminism is good for men too, but as a side effect, it’s not the aim!

‘If your intersectionality isn’t female-centred, it isn’t Feminism’

Someone will always ask, if it's about equality (as that's what most dictionary definitions incorrectly imply) then why isn't it called humanism, or equaltyism. And plenty of people reject the label 'feminist' for sounding too aggressive or for prioritising women over men or many of those other behaviours women have been socialised against.

Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie has an excellent answer to this that my slow phone won't help me find but it's all about acknowledging that sex and gender are the problem and the name 'feminism' is necessary to identify what women are oppressed by. Simply being pro equality between sexes masks the problem somewhat.

Which is why to my mind, despite quotes like the one from Paris Lees, trans women cannot be a part of feminism as they uphold the gender binary feminists are trying to liberate themselves from.

Thanks. I'm relatively new to the terminology, and my brain was being somewhat blown by a very 'woke' discussion among a group of lefties. What I heard just did not make any sense!

They seemed to believe that feminism which centred itself exclusively on females was essentially unfemale, as selfishness and exclusivity were unfemale traits.

This has been posted before but I still love it...

They seemed to believe that feminism which centred itself exclusively on females was essentially unfemale, as selfishness and exclusivity were unfemale traits.

I guess that makes the whole of FWR men then.

Some MTF transgender people claim to be female. What follows is why we must not accept this premise
Feminism would therefore apply to them.
When fighting for social justice, it is reasonable to prioritise oppressed classes. For example, issues disproportionately affecting poor women might take priority over those affecting wealthier women.
Transgender people are more oppressed than gender conforming people.
Women are more oppressed than men.
Feminism should therefore focus on issues affecting the most oppressed females, ie transwomen.
Issues such as clitoral and labial mutilation, maternity rights, unequal pay, chest-feeding etc. should be treated with caution, because they are not inclusive of transwomen

They seemed to believe that feminism which centred itself exclusively on females was essentially unfemale, as selfishness and exclusivity were unfemale traits.

Feminism is not defined by gender stereotypes such as 'selfishness is unfemale'. Such stereotypes contribute to structural sexism e.g the disproportionate number of women carers.

as selfishness and exclusivity were unfemale traits.

A harmful socially-constructed stereotype, of the kind that feminism fights against. For obvious reasons, it’s one that’s very appealing to (and convenient for) men. There are plenty of men in my profession who benefit from it enormously.

Great post ScienceRoar

Yes this is the exact logic of male centred "intersectional" feminism.

When fighting for social justice, it is reasonable to prioritise oppressed classes.

For example, issues disproportionately affecting poor women might take priority over those affecting wealthier women.

Transgender people are more oppressed than gender conforming people.

Women are more oppressed than men.

Feminism should therefore focus on issues affecting the most oppressed females, ie transwomen.

Issues such as clitoral and labial mutilation, maternity rights, unequal pay, chest-feeding etc. should be treated with caution, because they are not inclusive of transwomen

Another thing that confused me was that this group of friends considered themselves to be breaking stereotypes.

We were all, I'd guess, late 40s upwards, but the discussion reminded me of the right-on political philosophy types from my uni days spouting long-winded sentences with polysyllabic technical vocabulary.

It ignored people's lived experiences and sounded hypocritical then, it does the same now.

I was the newcomer to the group. I was made very welcome but will not return.

"They seemed to believe that feminism which centred itself exclusively on females was essentially unfemale, as selfishness and exclusivity were unfemale traits."

holy crap.

anyway, quality thread, OP.

despite being off-message a good proportion of the time on this board, I think I'm getting the hang of this what-feminism-is thing.

You can tell when you have convos with people in real life.

quick applause for science roar

I never understood what feminism was. I thought I was one but I was msitaken

So mistaken that I can't spell mistaken

understanding that it is not primarily about equality is a tricky concept (for me at least).

I didn't realise that I was one until fairly recently!