To ‘out’ or not to ‘out’ re GC position

[IAmSproutycus]

Simply that. I’m at the point where I’m debating whether I’m more use staying publicly reasonably schtum (I’ve already tackled this a bit with my very large public sector employer and been roundly silenced at HR level) or whether it’s more use for me to talk out more openly, e.g on Twitter/push the issue at work. I am aware that there is the possibility (probability) that due to my job the TRAs might find me interesting to try to take down (that sounded really grandiose and knobby - I mean they might feel that they can argue I shouldn’t be in a position where I might ‘wrongly’ influence vulnerable people. I’m sure that in the grand scheme they may not give a turkey’s butthole about little old me and my opinions). Anyway, how can I/we be of most use? Yes, it’s feeling horribly risky, and I’m very aware that many people don’t have the emotional, mental, or physical resources to be able to speak out right now. I’m not sure that I do, either tbh. Sorry for the confused and rambly thoughts. In essence, do I go the route of supporting the inestimable stickerwoman etc (which I will continue to do) or do I
/(we?) add my name to the people who will speak openly about this. God, I’m beginning to sound a bit TRA meself (what about meme me meme me me me 😳😀)

Can I check - sis that question for me trousered?

Cos if so........huh?

I don't work there any more, which I stated quite clearly in at least one of my posts. I said I'm self employed now.

But no, it was not about toilets. It was about being listened to and not written off immediately.

From what I hear several parts of the public sector in the past year or so has required staff to attend diversity training with an emphasis on gender rather than sex equality. Plenty of people are, often without realising it, quite GC. But know enough to keep quiet. In the same way as you pretend you really enjoyed the team awayday.

I think that the diversity training provided in many organisations, and I am speaking non specifically and generally and not directly about my own organisation, has headlined the relative vulnerability of trans women and the view that TWAW to the extent that any woman using organisations involving providing services to women is not allowed to ask for single sex service without being deemed transphobic. We (speaking generically as providers of services, not about directly my own organisation) are to treat the woman who is expressing a wish to not be provided a service in the same accommodation as the trans woman as if she is being transphobic and to move her to different accommodation where available, but otherwise to explain that we are inclusive and non-discriminatory. In essence organisations are to assume that the woman with the problem requires more education and to imagine it to be a similar situation to if a white woman did not want to share services with a woman of colour, in which organisations would not alter services to account for someone’s prejudice.

I recently attended diversity training at a large organisation and the external trainer listed gender instead of sex as a protected characteristic. I hauled her over the coals in front of everyone every time she misused the word.

I explained I have been discriminated against all my working life because of my female sex not my gender identity and this is still the case.

I work in HR. We are not all idiots.

My most profuse apologies if anyone felt my own experience was indicating that I felt those in HR are eejits. It’s likely only the eejit I encountered in HR is an eejit, not all HR.

In essence organisations are to assume that the woman with the problem requires more education and to imagine it to be a similar situation to if a white woman did not want to share services with a woman of colour, in which organisations would not alter services to account for someone’s prejudice.

We all know this is a false equivalence. Where organisations are challenged they are correcting their position, see Swim UK, LAs, and so on. Taking a defeatist approach to this will get us nowhere. If you don't want to act, don't act, but writing on a feminist board about it being pointless acting for women rights is not a feminist thing to do. On the whole people don't join the dots. If you are responsible for service provision you should be considering this.

I'm not going to keep quite if this comes up.

quiet. I mean officially, at work.

My stance is not defeatist Trousered, it is anxious and cautious. I did not post on a Feminist board saying it is pointless to act for women’s rights, my OP clearly signposts a request for viewpoints on whether there is a more appropriate way to address the overall issue, by long term cumulative anonymous action, or by what can potentially be, for women, career affecting one off speak outs followed by long term legal action. I do not consider my post to be a non feminist thing to do, nor do I consider it a feminist thing to do. I’m saddened that my raising a question that is surely a quandary for many of us is being interpreted by you as ‘non feminist’ and ‘defeatist’. Surely non feminist would be ignoring the issue, not considering the issue, not have raised it at work in the first place? My goodness, if that is non feminist I’m not sure what bar I have to hit to achieve your award of ‘feminist’. Not feeling supported by this.

Gosh, that was a bit unnecessary, Trousered

Sprouty appears to be looking for advice and a helpful discussion, not a lecture and a scolding.

IAmSproutycus -

I understand your anxiety. I work for the NHS, and raised concerns about this issue months ago, in relation to safeguarding and risk.

I've yet to receive a response to my concerns.

I have to be honest - the process has been gruelling. It has also impacted upon relationships with one or two people at work, despite the fact that they broadly agree with my position . Awkwardness, rather than anything more serious. These people have known me for many years though, which I think helps. I do also know they also have a grudging respect that I'm pointing out the emperor has no clothes on.

The most distressing aspect for me has been observing how otherwise smart, responsible professionals, with an excellent understanding of safeguarding are persisting in sticking their fingers in their ears and pretending it's not happening.

What keeps me going is knowing that the reason no one is willing to respond to my concerns is that their position is indefensible.

I want a response; I want someone to sit in front of me and tell me my fears are unfounded, so that I can point out, again, and with evidence, why they're not.

I rarely post, and I name change quite a bit, but also wanted to say that I've had support from some amazing women on here which has made a huge difference to me / kept me sane. Their advice has been bloody brilliant.

Happy to pass some of that support on if I can help with anything.

Good luck

Actually Sproutycus, having re-read some of your posts, I wonder if we're working for the same service! All of that sounds very familiar . . .

I hope we are. I could use an ally ✌🏾

I would be most careful about it. I also work in not quite the public sector but for another gov body, If I say anything that is deemed to bring the organsiation into disrepute I will lose my job, This also includes what I say politically or socially as they unrealistically claim it could be construed as their views. Although trans I don't agree with most of what some are pushing for or their views that TWAW and if outed would expect to face a disciplinary hearing leading to dismissal.

Hi there, longtimelurkingtrans. I just wanted to say hi and that I’m so sad that this debate is being framed as feminists against trans women. I spent a good portion of my working life previously campaigning for rights and support for trans women and will continue to do so. I will not let the views of TRAs overshadow the needs of those trans women whose views they do not represent, and I will not let my anger at those few people close my heart to the rest of what I believe and hold important x

Hi IAmSproutycus
Thank you and like you saddened to see some people try to drive a wedge between us, We have a TRA type at work and I have to very careful as he/she would love to see me hang for my views on access to womens spaces and that TW aren't actual women and we can never be,
But please be careful for you employment, Us civil and public servants are going to be under the cosh as our respective organisations bend over backwards for this crowd.

I know this isn’t the topic of the thread and you of course are unde no obligation to respond, lurker, but is there anything specific people can do to support the trans women not being represented by the TRAs?

The best support is for non represented trans is mutual support, Without being too outing my branch would have seen you sacked for being gay or trans and I'm both lol, and it was horrifically homophobic, misogynistic and a touch transphobic, The employer has taken fantastic steps to modernise and normalise attitudes. But there is still that little hard core that wont, Women have always been my ally, myself and other gay guys have had our corner fought for us and in return fought women's corner when the "women have no place doing xyz types" raise their voices or try and engineer their downfall etc.
As for taking on the TRA's damaging approach I'm at a loss and will just carry on as before, I can only hope common sense breaks out and within their ranks that any moderates will take control and steer things onto a more mainstream/thoughtful approach to female concerns and how to interact with the wider community,
I hope this makes sense as I'm more of a short hit and run occasional posting lurker than an eloquent intelligent poster.

I plan to drip feed. To mention news stories.

We have mixed loos and the men piss all over the floor and leave seats up. They ignore the notices to keep clean/put lid down.

This is pissing off every woman now. I've already said "Mixed sex toilets are not fair on women" and am listening out for the lovely gender neutral phrase.

We have some training around safeguarding soon, so that will be interesting.

Longtimelurking seems to sum up the problem.

Decent people will support and accept colleagues. The problem is when some demand that there is only one version of the truth, that there is no scope for debate, that dissenters should be punished, and that one group’s needs/demands trump all.

In a reasonable environment there should be scope for discussion and compromise. Instead one vocal group have been given a pass to bully, or worse. Whilst intelligent and dedicated staff have to sit through ‘training’ wondering if anyone will be brave enough to observe that the emperor has no clothes.

In the past month I have been open about my views. I am open now because I am 100% confident that my views are not discriminatory and that I feel intolerably silenced by keeping them to myself.

However, I do not raise issues but rather comment on them when they arise. For example, this week at work, I had to fill in a form. It had a section entitled 'Gender' and the options were males, female, transgender, non binary, rather not say. I asked the department who produced the form whether they wanted information about my sex or my gender identity and asked them why they wanted it/ what they were using it for.

During a team meeting, a discussion took place where by people were stating (in a manner that was assuming 100% agreement) that it was 'ridiculous that people are so scared of penises'. I proffered that I can understand why many women may be anything from uncomfortable to scared by the presence of male bodied people in spaces where they don't expect to see them. I also said that such women deserve as much thought and consideration as male bodied people who experience similar feelings in spaces for male bodied people.

I have yet to have anyone shout me down or even try to silence me. I have had a few attempts of people wanting to patronise/educate me. I have responded by asking them questions that they couldn't answer. One then ended the discussion with a 'we'll have to agree to disagree' and the other cried. To this I empathised and said it is indeed very difficult but I'm sure we can find ways forward that ensures everybody's needs can be considered.

Whilst I tend to mix and work in very 'right on' circles, instead of being problematic, it is quite easy to talk. It is not socially acceptable to dismiss people's views (unless they are derailing another conversation or tub thumping when no one is interested) and without the capacity to shut down, rather wokey's have no mechanism to stop reasonable discussion taking place.

Great Post Beau there are good tips there.

I wonder if you’re more articulate and considered than me, beau? I just go ‘umum umph, bumble phump’ , go bright red, and then feel shit all day 😳
Will try my best to gently raise and challenge where possible whilst avoiding potential kamikaze death roll of career. Thanks all

I'm very undercover. But occasionally I can raise something along the lines of 'of course I support trans people's right to live as their preferred gender, but how do we stop toxic men from screwing over trans people and everyone else by abusing that?'
Helps that I have a fair number of experiences from my own life where this has actually happened - men who have never said they were women, until there was a way for them to screw over women by doing so.
I also seem to get away with talking directly about my own life experiences more than in generalities. Examples of where I've been treated worse directly for having a female body, such as unsympathetic and discriminatory responses to my needing flexible working around endometriosis.

I’m happily popping it into conversation wherever it’s appropriate at the moment. Most people I know that I’m speaking to are agreeing and can’t believe things have got so far.