Why do women keep apologising?

[auntethel]

I was on another thread posting with a bloke. I asked a question which he didn't want to answer (fair enough, obviously). But when he said this, he just stated matter of fact "I don't want to answer that". I realised that, if it had been the other way round, I would have said "sorry, I don't want to answer that really". What the hell is the "sorry" and "really" for? I've only been noticing little things like this since I've been coming onto the feminist chat. I'm really pissed of with myself, I must have been doing it all my life without even noticing! Does anyone else apologise for no reason whatsoever?

It is because we are conditioned 1.) to be nice, 2.) to facilitate men 3.) not stand out, speak up or make a fuss.

If we can’t do any of those things we are primed to bow, scrape and apologise.

Sorry (there I go again) the title should be "why do I keep apologising". See what I mean, there was no real need for an apology in that sentence, was there?

Oh and I’ve made a point of making sure my DDs don’t feel the need to do the extra “sorry”. It has been quite a hard leap for me.

It's pathetic isn't it? Thank goodness for the feminist board, i've really had my eyes opened lately. It's a great feeling but annoying at the same time.

Unfortunately, I've left it too late. My dd is 25. I feel as though I've let her down. Think I'll have a word with her and tell her what I've learnt.

I have lived in Germany and the USA and I find we do a lot more apologizing in the U.K. I have managed to train myself to be more straightforward and not be apologetic because in those cultures you are seen as weak and lacking in will power/knowing what you want and much too vague if you behave that way.

So I guess I mean to say it’s not just male/female but British socialization. On th either hand the Japanese are much more deferential than us in my experience.

I think there is an element of being brought up British that plays into this. Equally I’m not British (I’m Irish) and feel this overwhelming urge to apologise too.

It's maddening isn't it? My aim is to become more like thebewildered (don't know if you've seen her on feminist board) very straight talking, short, to the point, comments.

Havingalittle “oh g’wan, g’wan, g’wan, g’wan”
“Oh I couldn’t, no really...”
“G’wan, g’wan, g’wan”

Etc etc.

My mantra at work is 'never apologise, never explain'... unless I am asked for an explanation!

I find that men are better at saying 'I think x'. Even if they don't apologise for having an opinion, women often end up explaining their opinion in a way that's apologetic or comes across as a justification when one isn't necessary.

Oh yes. I've noticed that. When you don't do it, you appear to other women as rude. Not assertive.

I have also noticed that when you apologise when you've done nothing wrong , it weakens you. People don't respect you for your lack of aggression; they think you are in the wrong.

auntethel

There's a good book called A Woman In Your Own Right; Assertiveness and You. A quick read, it helps you understand and overcome different communication styles

The thing is, I don’t. Not sure why - girls school effect maybe? And it can be very tricky. You end up saying something clearly and politely and because you haven’t prefaced it with “I’m terribly sorry, but could I suggest...? I’m probably wrong, etc, etc” people act as though you’ve slapped them in the face.

I think it's a British thing. Men do this a lot too. Your example of one man doesn't prove anything.
Canadians joke about themselves apologising a lot too.
Perhaps women are socialised to do it a little more, but so many men begin a sentence with "I'm sorry, but", I can't say I notice that women do it more.

You end up saying something clearly and politely and because you haven’t prefaced it with “I’m terribly sorry, but could I suggest...? I’m probably wrong, etc, etc” people act as though you’ve slapped them in the face.

Yes! I find this. You get accused (overtly or otherwise) of being bolshy, bossy, argumentative, a bloody difficult woman etc. A man saying the same thing would be decisive, assertive, showing leadership etc - respected, not derided.

Even worse if you state things as facts rather than ‘just’ your opinion; “This is unacceptable” rather than “I think this is unacceptable” (the ‘right’ way for a woman to say it would be “I’m sorry, but I don’t think this is acceptable”, maybe with a few more conditional/couching words in there).

We’re conditioned to soften, soothe, and generally not challenge and acquiesce. Heaven forbid we have opinions.

I find myself apologising for things which are absolutely not my fault to try and appease people - such as delays at airports, things not working, traffic jams. As soon as the other person starts to show annoyance I start apologising, then they normally get annoyed and tell me to stop apologising, then I apologise more for apologising... stems for some fairly screwed up parenting, in my case. I feel responsible for other people's feelings even when I'm absolutely and clearly not. Then I feel utterly pathetic and useless for apologising when I should be more assertive (and generally am). I hate this facet of my personality. It drives DH crackers too, although he understands I can't really help it (and he doesn't try to use it or provoke it - fortunately I managed to avoid falling into the trap of ending up with a clone of a shite parent).

Not sure if it's also partly a female socialisation thing?

Because when we don't make the extra effort to be gentle we're called 'aggressive' and 'shrill' or 'bitchy' or 'emotional'.

We are trained to do it. It's hard to train yourself out of. I write a comment, then go back and reread it and edit out all the bits where I'm apologizing, asking for permission, or downplaying my own opinion.

The latter is really common too, i tend to say "I'm not sure, but in my experience I think that..." and then I go back and reread it and think to myself "if you're so unsure of yourself why are you talking at all? You do know that you have something worth saying, so why are you scared to act like it?"

Yes. I'm trying to stop myself apologising for when I disagree with a man. Men my generation often think a woman is being rude to disagree and I don't see why I should continue to bolster that delusion, especially when we're mustering counter-arguments and fresh evidence.

My DH isn’t white British (English? Are the English particularly bad at this?) and I really struggle to pick apart which bits of our differing attitudes are cultural and which are sexist. Stupid things like if I serve puddling, I’ll always take the dodgy broken slice for myself - he won’t. It’s inconsequential really, except that it isn’t if DD copies me and is deferential whilst DS copies DH and isn’t.

Oh wow, I feel like I've found my thread. I am a terrible people pleaser and I hate it.
I was in a job and one year at our Christmas office party we had these joke awards, 'Most Likely To' that kind of thing, so my colleagues were getting things like 'Most Organised' 'Office Feeder' 'GOT Expert' I got 'Most Likely to Say Sorry'. I was devestated, others thought it was a funny joke but it made me realise how it holds me back socially and in my career.
I'm trying to do it less and I will look out for that book you recommended Ladybirds but 40yrs of conditioning are hard to break aren't they. For me I think it's a lack of confidence in myself and my abilities, I have to keep telling myself that I am good enough and wothwhile.
It's really sad isn't it.

I have been thinking

I think that this is one of the reasons people find Feminism Chat a bit bracing when they first come on. People on here are often further along the line in learning to be unapologetic in their views and statements. So that can seem unusual and challenging. And occasionally, women who come on here for the first time and are very apologetic can either put people's hackles up or their suspicions. We get raised by MRAs and TRA who pretend to be women by first using this hesitant 'schtick' at first

Thanks for the book recommendation Ladybirds, I will definitely read that. In a way, I'm thankful to see other posters who are similar but annoyed with us all too. I love the pp's where their straight talking caused a look of being slapped in the face That's how I want to be.

raided by TRAs and MRAs, not 'raised'

Mrsdoyles

Menopause does a lot for assertiveness, I think