Another bloke making another strong GC argument

[Oldstyle]

A bit of cheer to counter Liberty's recent statement that 'the GRA changes will only affect trans people and must be supported'.

twitter.com/AlteredSquid/status/1032647992476463105
Hope you can access this - it's lengthy but thorough and well-argued.

I thought this was really interesting. I think not differentiating between the 2 types is what makes some women uncomfortable with the rad fem stance. How many times do we hear "but I've got some really good friends who are transgender...." Yez, they're probably HSTS, rather than AGPs.

Knowing they are different and that the issue wouldn't be solved in exactly the same way for both groups would probably help this feeling of disquiet some women have about fighting back against the group of TS/TG people who just want to quietly get on with their lives, in the way they always have.

I would argue there is a third group of body dysmorphic individuals who don't fit into either group but fit the typology of HSTS much more than of AGPs.

Perhaps we need new terminology? TERF should be replaced with AGPERF?!

Many arguments against autogynephilia are tackled by Anne Lawrence in this essay originally published in the journal European Psychologist in 2017. She has trained as a medical doctor and identifies as a transsexual with AGP.

www.annelawrence.com/autogynephilia_&_MtF_typology.html

Hello SarahAr (sorry, kind of new here, don't know how to put names in bold, my apologies), I'm actually here to ask questions and educate myself because the 'leading' third sector organisations have not been able to answer my questions about this issue. Amnesty and Liberty may know a lot about human rights but they are not necessarily at the forefront of medicine and psychology, and, if I recall correctly, the BMJ has recently endorsed a somewhat more critical perspective. This is a very complex question, spanning civil rights, social science, medicine, the law, philosophy etc., etc. So thanks to everyone who is committed to keeping things civil.

PatriarchyPersonified, thank you for posting this link, this was worth watching, and I kind of agree with Natalie Wynn that the Bailey book sounds like some of it is very bad social science. I might have to read it now!

SarahAr
PatriarchyPersonified
Apologies again, should have tried harder. Thanks for your engagement.

pseudonymous posters - the majority of whom have a strong ideological position.

Yes, SarahAr, our ideological position of wishing to protect women and children. Do you find it surprising to find such a position on Mumsnet?

I think this is one of the things that most people "know" too.

We've been sharing toilets for years, mostly without incidence, with TW like Susan who wear clothes from M&S Classics and understand that occasionally there are places that they still can't go. We haven't been sharing toilets with "gender flexible" men who sometimes feel like a man, sometimes like a woman; or with people who get the raging horn from putting on a pair of knickers and some lippy

Even if someone is autogynephile, that in itself is not a valid objection to allowing them in women's spaces, it's essentially just an extension of the 'gay men shouldn't be allowed in men's changing rooms because they fancy men' argument, which obviously won't get you anywhere.

Those ideas are not equivalent. A gay man is still a man. An autogynephile is a man who is sexually aroused by the idea of himself as a woman. Even if we take the standpoint that this is a perfectly harmless fetish, it does not give him any more right to use women's spaces than any other man - gay, straight, fetishist or not. He is a man with a fetish, not a woman.

flippin

I did not know that some TRAs had admitted they failed psychological evaluations

I would say to any lurkers, to anyone who has come to MN to educate themselves you have to choose between two views: on one side the two leading human rights organisations who consist of legal and human rights professionals and on the other side pseudonymous posters - the majority of whom have a strong ideological position.

And I would say to any lurkers - read all the evidence on here, hear the arguments, and make your own mind up. There is an orthodoxy here that is actually dangerous to question - evidenced by a bomb threat, countless rape and death threats, doxxing, masked protestors, and an assault on a 60-year old grandmother. The promotion of the trans activist narrative is tied up in significant funding and political capital.
The trans activists are as ideologically driven, if not more so, and have spent much time lobbying hidden from view of the public consciousness.
Read the Fair Play for Women guidelines, ask about single sex spaces like prisons, SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING TO LESBIANS.
Think about the massively aggressive tactics being used to silence opposing viewpoints from the public square.
If we are that bad, then let us "pull a Nick Griffin" and debate us in the open. The problem is that every time a gender-critical feminist speaks and brings up concerns, the public starts to ask reasonable questions about all this.
That's why they want to shut down the debate and are so livid at even the existence of Mumsnet.
The posters here come from a variety of backgrounds, some are lawyers, scientists, social workers, etc. Most are ordinary, liberal women. Every one has found there way here because they were trying to ask questions that cannot be openly discussed elsewhere.
There are no "neutral" actors.
But make your own mind up.

Even if someone is autogynephile, that in itself is not a valid objection

It is a valid objection Patriarchy because the AGP is male and males of any kind do not belong in women's spaces.

Excellent post heresy

To you list I'd add mothers, activists, educators, psychologists, women who've experienced terrible trauma and come through the other side.

also, lesbians, transexuals, bisexual women, homosexual men

Even if someone is autogynephile, that in itself is not a valid objection

Yes it is.

Ah, Liberty, famously led by Baroness Chakrabaki until she accepted the thirty pieces of silver from the Labour party.

I would say to any lurkers, to anyone who has come to MN to educate themselves you have to choose between two views: on one side the two leading human rights organisations who consist of legal and human rights professionals and on the other side pseudonymous posters - the majority of whom have a strong ideological position.

hold on, surely you’re aware that the TRA push for legal gender self ID is one aspect of an idealogical position? Part of an worryingly ultra capitalist, highly individualistic, deeply misogynistic and authoritarian ideology at that.

heresyandwitchcraft thank you for Anne Lawrence link, that's really useful, too. Note the erasure of discussion of autogynephilia among scholars (worrying) but also note that it is just a paraphilia like many others and thus harmless (?). Still reading, still asking questions ... thank goodness for MN.

Even if someone is autogynephile, that in itself is not a valid objection

Ugh. Of course it's a valid objection. Forcing women to use preferred pronouns, and demanding they accept you in a women's space is a turn on for these men.

I seriously can't believe I have to explain to someone why I do not want to be an unwitting participant in a male's sexual fetish - particularly when I'm half naked.

And anyone who doubts Blanchards theory, perhaps this thread will help. It's written by, and for, women who have been married to, or divorced from, autogynephiles.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

Claiming that forcing women to participate in men's fetishes is harmless, is utterly contemptible.

No.

Get it?

No.

This from GenderTrender titled 'The power of panties'

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2018/08/24/the-power-of-panties/

My goodness what is going on here? Of particular interest is the comment from SkylarkPhilips. I believe Skylark has come out as gender critical too.

The twitter feed from AlteredSquid, which discusses how AGP's can be dangerous to women, is clearly evidenced in the link above.

However, there is something that puzzles me though regarding what AlteredSquid wrote. I'm not on twitter and perhaps Datun can help, though if you're busy I understand.

Re: HSTS. Defined as Homosexual Transsexual the conclusion is that HSTS' are sexually attracted, when transitioned, to heterosexual men, from the link. Is this right? The following is the quote I refer to.

HSTS can be thought of as super-feminine gay men. Femininity is natural to them; masculinity is alien. They know they are not women, but they wish to live as women. They are attracted to heterosexual men.

If they think they are not women, then this is a sexual wish fulfilment that will never happen.

If they think they are not women, then this is a sexual wish fulfilment that will never happen.

From what I have read, placemats, that's exactly right.

A lot of TRAs get very angry with women's discussion of AGP. Understandably. It's completely undermines the entire narrative of born in the wrong body and being part of a marginalised cohort.

Sympathy diminishes quickly for men with a fetish.

I think, for a lot of women, it's enough to know it's a fetish, and they don't need to know any further details.

But, of the pieces I have drilled down into, there is an acknowledgement that HSTS transition can be motivated by seeking a heterosexual partner. It comes across, to me, at least, as internalised homophobia.

An unwillingness to recognise their sexual orientation, and so they take steps to deny it, whilst still being able to accommodate it.

There is a sort of logic to it.

The italics are mine in the quote.

I meant to add that I don't think it can be very successful. For obvious reasons.

It is interesting though, if you get an HSTS transwoman who is willing to talk about it, they will tell you how many straight men are enthusiastic users of trans porn.

I have no idea if that's true. I'm sure it could easily be. But to me, it still says they are gay or bisexual men in denial.

Thank you Datun.

That's a very helpful and clear reply.

I'm so glad that Caley Patrick recovered physically from the horrific attack she endured, though mentally it will stay with her forever.

I think too it puts many HSTS into the same vulnerability group when it comes to sexual relationships as women. This vulnerability has been co opted by the AGP's is my understanding, thereby pushing them ever closer to the margins, just like women.

'them' being HSTS's, though I'm sure that's clear enough from what I have written.