Have we petitioned Stonewall directly?

[heresyandwitchcraft]

Stupid question. I was thinking with the momentum of Stickerwoman that perhaps we could start a direct petition to Stonewall UK just to engage in dialogue with women's groups/set up a public neutrally structured debate?
Does anyone know if we have recently tried directly petitioning the LGBT groups to even just TALK to us? I know there have been ones to the government, but I really think it's more than a little crazy that we can't even speak with the so-called "other side."
Maybe if we get enough signatures to them they can stop pretending this is just a minority concern?
What do you think?

12thGuelph

Hi… Who's the "we" of the title please?

That's an odd question. Who do you think the "we" in the title refers to.

Very strange question indeed. I wonder if the individual is as curious about any other thread with "we" in the title? This seems to be their only post.
Time for a Public Service Announcement, I think.
If you'd like to continue just speculating out loud about this subject (although these ideas are likely futile, risky, and too little, too late), perhaps PM for now?

@Juells Well given it's Mumsnet's FWR board I'd have assumed "we" was Mumsnet or FWR members…

As the OP, I can reassure you that the "we" does not refer to any group. It's a general hypothetical.

No, MN clearly label their posts as being by a staff member.

I'm sure the 'we' in the thread title would be delighted to send all their private details to you, including where they work. Just ask 😉

*Mumsnet members, Juells.

Rest assured I've no interest in the details of your little resistance, I was just surprised that OP implied that the whole board was a GC constituency.

12th, don't worry yersel hen, no one is being compelled to sign up to GC beliefs if they post here. We tend to encourage robust back and forth so that all and any view point can stand up to challenge. Well aware that plenty come here with opposing views. But they wouldn't be interested in asking Stonewall to address their misogynistic lesbophobia, would they, so I think it's fairly obvious they wouldn't assume they were part of the 'we' of the title.

12thGuelph
Mumsnet members, Juells.

I don't understand what that means. When MN staff post they identify themselves. Was that not clear from my previous post?

Rest assured I've no interest in the details of your little resistance

Ooooh your male privilege is showing. Not to mention your sense of superiority.

Oy… I meant MN members, not MN staff...

Ooooh your male privilege is showing. Not to mention your sense of superiority.

I'm a cis woman. You're the one who thinks they can divine identity through three sentences on a computer screen.

There's no such thing as a cis woman.

That'll be 'actual woman' then.

It's very odd that a person who claims not to care at all decides to namechange/create a brand new profile just to derail this specific thread.
Not exactly a feminine-typical pattern of behaviour...
As the OP, I answered your question already.
It is a vague, unspecified, "we" to mean anyone who is worried about the homophobic, misogynistic, violent rhetoric coming from some trans activists.
The thread is for anyone concerned about women getting bomb threats, explicit rape and death threats, masked hostile protestors, and a 60-year old grandmother being assaulted in the name of trans activism.
If it makes you feel any better, consider it a "royal we."
Kindly step off.

Not exactly a feminine-typical pattern of behaviour...

That's just sexist.

I don't care about your schemes, I care that you act like you own this board and thread. But go back to your robust back and forth, do.

I was just surprised that OP implied that the whole board was a GC constituency.

Gosh, don't leave the house any time soon, who knows what could surprise you out in the big wide world.

I'm a cis woman.

Ooh, do you really all dress up like Barbie every day? That must be quite a chore don't you think?

By using "cis" you are telling me that you believe in a sexist ideology that reduces womanhood to a "feeling" or "inner essence" and questions the very existence of females as a class of people defined by simple biology. That you believe gender and gender roles are somehow something innate (and I believe they are stereotypes). "Cis" implies that the noun for adult human females (woman) needs to be re-defined to accommodate the feelings of a handful of males who believe they "feel like women."
The ideology you're supporting by using "cis" is far more sexist than me telling you that you're not even acting in a manner that would fit with the "feminine gender" expected of a self-proclaimed "cis" woman.

And it's not an insult - females not acting feminine on this board is usually something to be applauded. As long as they remain respectful.
But you're deliberately derailing and behaving in a manner that is more typical of the masculine gender - somewhat aggressively and making this thread all about you.
I've answered your question.

I said "cis", not femme, because you'd have carried on thinking I was a man otherwise.

I asked a question and I got some aggressive replies implying I was after doxxing you. You (plural) are making this thread all about me. Isn't the 1st rule of misogyny that women are made responsible for what misogynists do?

"Cis" implies that the noun for adult human females (woman) needs to be re-defined to accommodate the feelings of a handful of males who believe they "feel like women."

And FTM / trans men. I'm an androgynous lesbian, IncrediblySturdyPyjamas. You're the one thinking in stereotypes.

I said "cis", not femme, because you'd have carried on thinking I was a man otherwise.

cis is someone who 100% complies with the gender stereotypes of the sex they were born with though isn't it?

So you'd have to be in pink 24/7, flouncy dresses, long hair, stick thin blah blah blah.

If you are saying you aren't dressed as Barbie all day every day, that makes you what exactly? Just a normal woman?

The theoretical distinctions between "cis" and "femme" are not of interest to me. By using "cis" you are at least implying that you identify with an indescribable feeling called "womanhood," the boundaries of which are usually explained in terms of the feminine gender role. Both terms are subsets of an ideology that says "I am what I say I am, because I am."
You have every right to believe it, and define yourself however you like. Trans people exist, gender dysphoria is a real thing, and trans people can define themselves however they like. Just like people can follow whatever religion they want. They should absolutely be free to lead happy lives devoid of violence. But there are ideological clashes here. I don't believe in the dogmatic principles of trans activism, just as I don't subscribe to religious assertions. I resent biological sex being minimized, and women being harassed, threatened and persecuted for wanting to define themselves by sex, not gender.

If you wanted to ask a question about how gender-critical this board is - please start a new thread.

But I suspect you're fishing for a specific reaction.

cis is someone who 100% complies with the gender stereotypes of the sex they were born with though isn't it?

So you'd have to be in pink 24/7, flouncy dresses, long hair, stick thin blah blah blah.

No, cis just means "not trans". But I'm not expecting someone who thinks there's just one stereotype of femininity to grasp this.

So, what's your point on the thread except to show everyone posting on it that not everyone agrees with them? Which they already knew because the thread is about trying to open up a conversation with an organization. Unless you're repping the mentioned organization and here to engage beyond sneering, I'm not really sure why you're here on a thread about activism you clearly despise.

A central premise of the gender-critical philosophy is that gender is cultural, historical, societal, and is the product of external impositions.
This argument is usually made because we recognize that stereotypes vary over time and across geography. There may be some general patterns that do not fluctuate as much, but there is no evidence to support that it is definitely due to nature over nurture. In any case, the statistical means for patterns of behaviour are so close, with significant overlap in the populations, that it using "gender" to tell us of a person's sex is not very helpful.
I fully support and WELCOME gender non-conformity, because I think these systems are stupid. But how you relate to gender doesn't change your biological sex.
Gender ideology says it is something innate, which means you have to re-define your very identity according to how you relate to whatever it is we know as "gender." And if you are going to deny the stereotyping that goes on with the gender-spectrum teaching for children, then you ought to do some research.
Here is a quote from transactivist Jane Fae, as to why she knew she was a woman:
...Jane says felt she had to 'invent' a male persona to fit in, but at high-powered meetings would feel like a 'shy teenage girl', avoiding the dynamic males and gravitating towards the few women present.

....

'I've always been very feminine and sensitive. I like doing traditionally female activities such as cleaning, ironing, cooking and washing up. The emotional intimacy of love-making has always been more important to me than the physical side.'

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1252462/Andrea-Fletcher-devoted-fiancee-whos-sticking-man-John-Ozimek-despite-fact-wants-woman-named-Jane-Fae.html

This is why I think you are the one subscribing to sexist theories. The idea that a middle-aged biological male can even know what a teenage girl feels like, or thinks that an affinity to housework somehow confers a claim on the title "woman" sounds far more offensive, to me.

But again, believe whatever you want. I just don't buy into the theory. Sex is my baseline. Not gender identity.

Again, please stop derailing this thread.

J Fae is full of hot air.

The article is actually really good to look at, if only as a document for how far this ideology has progressed.
Here is a quote I wonder whether JF would stand by now:
'I was not born a woman, nor have I experienced life from birth as a woman, so I'm not making any claims for myself, but in many ways I feel like a teenager again, discovering exactly who I am.'

I believed they do not..m