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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Responses to Scottish Govt GRA consultation now online

131 replies

howonearthdidwegethere · 22/08/2018 12:10

www.gov.scot/Topics/Justice/law/17867/gender-recognition-review/review-of-gender-recognition-act-2004-list-of-orga/published-responses-from-organisations

Not sure what the deal is with individual responses. None published. Maybe the SG don't publish them as a matter of course or everyone opted not to have them in the public domain.

OP posts:
Wanderabout · 23/08/2018 01:52

Happity

Yes the threat to funding is real and many in the sector are too frightened to speak up. Here is an anonymous article from a professional in the sector explaining more:

womansplaceuk.org/the-silencing-of-feminists-silences-survivors/

There are some who I think genuinely believe Self-ID is the way forward.

But many with impressive experience of front line services have grave concerns.

What worries me is a culture in which this cannot be openly discussed. That rings huge alarm bells for me.

Wanderabout · 23/08/2018 01:53

Can you get the impact assessments on FOI requests?

Yes.

Wanderabout · 23/08/2018 02:00

The other thing that rings big alarm bells Happity is the lack of women survivors voices.

If 'nothing about us without us' applies to trans people why does it not also apply to women? What consultation has been done with women?

Survivors are contacting the organisations who are supposed to support them, to beg and plead their case that single sex services are not erased so women who are deeply traumatised from male violence can use them:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3340863-Open-letter-from-survivors-of-male-violence

Spikypants · 23/08/2018 04:31

This is all utterly terrifying. I have a wonderful, sweet gender non conforming son in primary school. He just likes playing with girls, experimenting with make up and hair styles and dressing up. He, and we, are clear that he is a boy but can do all of these things.

The thought of the trans cult getting their hooks into him and the thought that the state could actually involve themselves makes me want to move away from Scotland, it really does.

Spikypants · 23/08/2018 07:11

This is how easily small organisations can lose funding. This isn’t trans related but shows how catastrophic a loss of funding can be. And an organisation in today’s climate deemed to be ‘not trans inclusive’ would lose its funding within months.

mobile.twitter.com/StaffsWomensAid/status/1032252510403219456

ChattyLion · 23/08/2018 07:28

socio, bd Flowers
pencils, alice thank you for your insightful posts.

It’s bloody terrifying isn’t it. The threat to children from third parties intervening to advocate for their transition (WTAF?! Shock). Vital services for women who have survived rape fucked over by men. The threat to wives in straight marriages who will be too afraid to say transing is unreasonable behaviour and have to stay married for two years. Human rights charities fucking over women and children’s rights in their policies. It’s shocking.

I can always tell when trans people have written the consultation or their response to it because they use that bullshit argument about a trans person’s privacy being breached if they are ‘outed’ as trans. It’s all part of the AGP fantasy of the ease of their own transition, the reductive belief that feminine clothes are all that makes up a woman, and the strongly-held narcissistis fantasy of their own ‘passing’ which is part of the AGP. It’s why they often say so confidently that they feel like a sexy teenage girl etc etc Hmm

Very very rare that IRL everyone is not thinking at first glance, even from a still photo ‘oh, OK, that is a trans person’.

Let alone meeting that trans person IRL, seeing them walking, talking with them. It’s obvious to people but we know the correct reaction is politeness and acceptance because we are not dicks about it. But it’s not healthy to have no boundaries or unconditional acceptance when it damages the rights of women and children.

We are hardwired as humans to recognise sex differences. Babies and kids can do it. These abilities don’t go away because of a change of clothes, hair or make up. It is not kind to pretend they do.

As an argument made by TRAs, it’s also (yet another) MASSIVE appropriation of the experience of lesbian and gay people. lesbian and gay people have historically (and also presently) ACTUALLY had their privacy, or safety very much endangered by being outed as gay.

Making it ironic that like with the Get the L Out lesbian protesters at London Pride this year, the response of people high up in various LGBT+ charities is to threaten to report the women to their employers to get the women sacked- thus potentially outing those women to their employer, as being lesbians. Who gives them the right to do that?

Also in case people have concerns- Scotland has its own regulator of charities, (like the charity Commission in England and Wales). So for anyone concerned about the anti women and anti children action of Scottish charities: please let them know.

Charities can’t legally abandon women and girls if those are their named beneficiaries of the charity. Nor can charities just decide not to do safeguarding any more if they have responsibility for young people or any vulnerable person in their provision of services. The OSCR will investigate reports of concerns.

www.oscr.org.uk
We are the independent Regulator and registrar for Scotland’s charities, including community groups, religious charities, schools, universities, grant-giving charities, and major care providers.

www.oscr.org.uk/about-charities/raise-a-concern

Mail: [email protected]
Twitter:@ScotCharityReg
Facebook: Scottish Charity Regulator

ChattyLion · 23/08/2018 07:34

Apologies I need to make a correction where I said:

I can always tell when trans people have written the consultation or their response to it because...

I omitted to add ‘activist’ - that should have read ‘trans activist type people’. Ie TRAs and their handmaidens.

A transsexual person would not make that claim. They don’t believe that clothes maketh the woman.

I will report my post and ask MNHQ for it to be amended for the avoidance of any doubt.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 23/08/2018 08:43

Chatty, thanks for the charities stuff. Assessments of any review of safeguards definitely would be interesting.

On the outing business, it's nuts isn't it? One the one hand there's the craving for attention and admiration and on the other the concern for being outed. I'd understand (a bit) if we were talking about cross-dressers who were doing it very privately, but this is about people who are seeking a legal recognition of gender change and apparently willing to declare the intend to "live as that gender". Of course, we have seen that living as woman now includes keeping the bead, suit and tie and being called Bob, so maybe that's it!

Wonderabout, that tweet!😡😡😡

Spikypants did you see the thread on guidelines for schools on sex / gender? I think its really important you contact your son's school to register your concern.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 23/08/2018 08:59

www.pressreader.com/uk/scottish-daily-mail/20180528/281487867021741

On named person and children's commissioner. Apologies, it was in the Daily Heil, but as it directly quotes the individual, I believe it is genuine.

Wanderabout · 23/08/2018 09:10

Thanks Alice

MyVisionsComeFromSoup · 23/08/2018 09:47

I can't see that Action for Trans Health (of the bonkers free all trans prisoners immediately and let us prescribe our own medications and do surgery on each other manifesto) made a submission - unless they're actually called something else?

Ereshkigal · 23/08/2018 09:54

the strongly-held narcissistis fantasy of their own ‘passing’

This, exactly. So few of them pass that there is no "outing" necessary.

Roseformeplease · 23/08/2018 09:58

PM me if anyone (I have sent one or two pms to some) wants to be involved in lobbying on this issue in the very near future.

ginghamstarfish · 23/08/2018 10:35

I live in Scotland and wouldn't know about any of this if I hadn't seen it on MN. Why is it not all over the news? What can I do to help? Count me in for lobbying, Rose

SirVixofVixHall · 23/08/2018 10:40

Yes Wanderabout. The silencing is frightening and sinister.

Ereshkigal · 23/08/2018 11:37

Yeah, maybe stick to prisoners of conscience in the Third World under threat of torture and death, Amnesty, which is why the majority of your supporters give you money, not for middle aged Scottish cross dressers and the rights of men to pay for sex.

Woulddolly · 23/08/2018 12:39

I do not understand why it's sexual assault for Gayle Newland to have sex with her girlfriend while pretending to be a man, and not abusive for a woman to be forced to stay in a marriage with a man who is now a woman.

AncientLights · 23/08/2018 13:00

Forgive if this has been already mentioned, but why does the 'Feminist Society' of the Uni of Bristol get to comment? I had assumed this to be a Scottish issue and last time I was there, Bristol was in England still.

I put the quotes around the society's name as they are clearly TRA handmaidens. Also, point 8 of the consultation isn't even a question, so I don't know how they managed to answer it. I haven't looked at the rest, as I live in God's Own County - Yorkshire, in case you don't know - which is set to become the Devil's Own if Mermaids, West Yorks Police, Mesmac and all have their way.

AncientLights · 23/08/2018 13:06

PS
I see Brighton & Hove have also chipped in their comments. If I'd have known it was a free-for-all I'd have done it too. Damn.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 23/08/2018 13:26

It's also somewhat astonishing is it not, that Brighton and Hove and the Bristol students managed to find out about this while some incredibly political literate women of my acquaintance actually in pigging Scotland were in the dark!

boatyardblues · 23/08/2018 13:59

I see Brighton & Hove have also chipped in their comments. If I'd have known it was a free-for-all I'd have done it too. Damn.

I responded & I don’t live in Scotland because it was unclear whether Scots with a self-ID GRC would then have full recognition in the rest of the UK, effectively bringing self-ID across the border with zero consultation with the test of the UK population. Hmm

chaoticgood · 23/08/2018 13:59

I'm particularly sad about the Quakers.

A good friend of mine is a Quaker and she is largely GC but does not have a settled opinion. I told her about the Quakers refusing Women's Place UK a venue earlier this year. She said that the Quaker community moves very slowly in deciding things, and cannot be expected to do something which could be seen as taking sides or risking violence, without first having extensive discussions and decision making time.

Yet, on seeing their response today, it turns out that they are in favour of self-id. Whatever extensive discussion went on in the lead up to taking this huge decision, my friend (who is an Elder, who reads all the literature and is very engaged with Quaker life) was not even aware of it, let alone involved.

www.gov.scot/Resource/0053/00539491.pdf

AsAProfessionalFekko · 23/08/2018 14:13

I wonder how many of those who completed the forms had the authority to speak on behalf of the group /association /club as a whole? Or was it just Loud Mouth Larry/Loretta in the PR dept?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 23/08/2018 14:21

wonder how many of those who completed the forms had the authority to speak on behalf of the group /association /club as a whole

I wondered this too. At least a couple of the ones I looked at didn't sound as if they had been written by committee which you would expect ones representing an organisation to be.

chaoticgood · 23/08/2018 14:32

Sorry wrong link! Here's the quakers:

www.gov.scot/Resource/0053/00539428.pdf

The other one I linked to was an Intersex association, which I was also surprised by as I often hear about the intersex community being against TRA stuff as appropriative. I don't understand the complexities though.

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