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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Legal take down of proposed changes to the GRA by barrister Julian Norman

68 replies

OrchidInTheSun · 22/08/2018 11:24

docs.google.com/document/d/1b7viOWsx-Wgw344fujX3QddaJN8d4JKJoaVhyzMz1so/mobilebasic

This is a really excellent and clear article which explains the legal impact on the EA of proposed changes to the GRA.

Well worth a read

OP posts:
TimeLady · 22/08/2018 21:55

Stephanie seems to have a web-invisibility-cloak, other than on Twitter.

Notmynom · 22/08/2018 22:03

I read the Stephanie Hayden essay a few days ago and did wonder whether it's author was actually a lawyer at all. Neither the analysis nor style is what I'd expect.

She's careful not to describe herself as either a solicitor or a barrister just in 'legal professional practice'. Plus the essay footnotes and blog 'about' section claim expertise in different areas. In one she's an immigration expert and the other a landlord and tenant lawyer.

The Law Society has no records for her but that could be down to a post GRC name change.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 22/08/2018 23:34

I would suggest, therefore, that amendment of the GRA to reduce gatekeeping and to encompass a much wider spectrum of self-perceived women will inevitably have an immediate and potentially destructive impact on the sex based exemptions provided under EA 2010.

From a legal perspective, omitting any analysis of gender as a harmful hierarchy which serves to oppress females, I would therefore suggest that

•	<span class="italic">Case law supports the contention that a GRC is fundamental</span> <span class="italic">to changing the comparator class</span> <span class="italic">in relation to</span> <span class="italic">discrimination</span> <span class="italic">claims</span>

•	<span class="italic">If female (and indeed male) can be defined biologically or legally, and the legal route to female status is vastly increased, that will have an inevitable impact on who is considered female</span> 

•	<span class="italic">Those who are considered in law female are eligible for the EA exemptions</span>, <span class="italic">and it is therefore clear that amendment of the GRA</span> <span class="italic">will affect the</span> <span class="italic">EA</span> <span class="italic">exemptions</span>

•	<span class="italic">I would support calls for existing law to be either repealed and re-drafted, or clarified properly so that it becomes accessible to a lay audience seeking to implement it</span>.


Great Conclusion - a must for inclusion in letters to MPs etc

womanformallyknownaswoman · 22/08/2018 23:42

This is the key case law referenced (given up trying to use italics!):

There are very few cases which deal with this, but I would suggest that this view is supported by the comments of HHJ Jeremy Richardson QC in R (Green) v Secretary of State for Justice [2013] EWHC 3491 (Admin). In that case the Court was dealing with an application by a male prisoner who had murdered his wife and who now wished to be considered female. Green did not have a dysphoria diagnosis but was treated by the prison and the court with the courtesy of being referred to as a woman (presumably socially, given that neither biological nor legal womanhood applied). At paragraphs 66 - 70 HHJ Richardson said that

A comparator has to be found in order for there to be discrimination or for the claimant to show she has had less favourable treatment. The claimant asserts the comparator should be a female prisoner; whereas the governor contends it should be a male prisoner. There can be no doubt the claimant has a protected characteristic gender reassignment. The claimant is, however, male. The only possible comparator is to a male prisoner who is not undergoing gender reassignment.



It seems to me that I must approach the discrimination issues in this way:


(1) Has the claimant been treated less favourably by the Governor than he would treat others in the exercise of his public function?


(2) If he has so treated the claimant, was this due to the claimant's gender reassignment?



Frankly, it is almost beyond argument that the only comparator is a male Category B prisoner at HMP Frankland. I am influenced by the judgment of the Court of Appeal in Croft v Royal Mail Group PLC [2003] EWCA (Civ) 1045. I find it impossible to see how a female prisoner can be regarded as the appropriate comparator. The claimant is a man seeking to become a woman but he is still of the male gender and a male prisoner. He is in a male prison and until there is a Gender Recognition Certificate, he remains male. A woman prisoner cannot conceivably be the comparator as the woman prisoner has (either by birth or election) achieved what the claimant wishes. Male to female transsexuals are not automatically entitled to the same treatment as women until they become women*.



I have no hesitation in saying the correct comparator is a male prisoner in Category B at HMP Frankland. I am utterly unconvinced that the claimant has been treated less favourably than such a prisoner indeed the reverse. Consequently, the second question I posed does not arise.

In other words, where a person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment but does not have a GRC, their comparator class in looking at a discrimination claim is other members of their birth sex who are not proposing reassignment. Once they do have a GRC, their comparator class is members of their acquired sex.

This means that if the GRA is amended so that self-declaration is all that is needed, Green would have had the comparator class of females rather than males and would have had a good case not just for access to the tights, wigs, prosthetic vagina and sanitary towels sought, but also for removal to the women's estate, because the comparator class would become females. Whilst Green was disqualified for want of a dysphoria diagnosis, the comparator class remained males.

This only applies to discrimination. Clearly, harassment and victimisation (the other two prohibited behaviours under the EA 2010) do not require a comparator class.

CardsforKittens · 23/08/2018 00:43

I just read the Hayden piece. It's incoherent. And I don't say that often. Whereas Norman's response was excellent: she nailed it. And I loved the remark about the pilot!

OrchidInTheSun · 23/08/2018 04:06

For those people worried about reading this via google docs, those nice chaps at Man Friday have put it on their blog: manfridayuk.org/2018/08/22/is-everyone-really-wrong/

OP posts:
miri1985 · 23/08/2018 05:22

I found the same part as womanformallyknownaswoman has quoted above interesting (so I won't post the whole thing again) but my question is if transwomen without a GRC for example Tara Hudson can in fact get moved to the female estate and their comparitor is a male prisioner as was held in the case Julian quoted, surely it opens it up for any male prisoner (trans or not) to sue for equal treatment to a trans woman in the female estate without a GRC

TransplantsArePlants · 23/08/2018 05:53

What kind of lawyer is SH? She's not on the register of Solicitors on the Law Society website, at least not under than name

TransplantsArePlants · 23/08/2018 05:54

also not on the barristers' register, although that one's apparently not exhaustive

TimeLady · 23/08/2018 06:29

What kind of lawyer is SH?

I think that's a legitimate question, Transplants, given that we are being asked to accept her legal opinion.

Ofew · 23/08/2018 06:45

What kind of lawyer is SH?

As I said on the other thread it appears she's neither a barrister nor a solicitor. It might be that she only completed some of the training required to fully qualify.

To be fair, there are perfectly legitimate circumstances where someone who has been a fully qualified barrister/solicitor might choose not to maintain their practising certificate and to do legal work (there are limits to what can be done but some work does not need to be carried out by a lawyer), in which case they are not allowed to call themselves a solicitor/barrister.

In those circumstances however people often refer to the fact that they were fully recognised as a barrister/solicitor as it's^^ obviously a better selling point. It's interesting that she has hasn't done this.

PeakPants · 23/08/2018 06:51

‘Lawyer’ doesn’t mean anything really. There are no restrictions on anyone calling themselves a lawyer (unlike eg holding yourself out to be a solicitor). She could have done a year of a law degree, dropped out and still be a ‘lawyer’. It’s meaningless.

Her twitter picture is extremely filtered. Why do people bother with that?

TimeLady · 23/08/2018 06:57

If a doctor was offering medical advice, I'd expect to see some evidence of their credentials. If the only evidence was their say so on a Twitter account, then I would be right to be wary.

Not saying that Stephanie is not a lawyer; it's just there is no evidence, freely available, that she is.

LassWiADelicateAir · 23/08/2018 07:15

i love it when all these online solicitors tell me my job !

As others have said- they clearly have to. Your comment about the GRA Act is completely irrelevant to the situation here.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 23/08/2018 11:12

surely it opens it up for any male prisoner (trans or not) to sue for equal treatment to a trans woman in the female estate without a GRC

Good point - again we need some legal cases bringing to test some of this idiocy

Katrinamakingwaves · 05/09/2018 11:03

There is a trail on google if you know where to look. As far as we can tell, SH is a law graduate but hasn’t ever qualified as a solicitor, barrister or Cilex, either under present name or former names (there are at least two names, with multiple variations on companies house)

NotAnotherJaffaCake · 05/09/2018 11:07

Is Julian Norman a MNer? I think I know her from another forum. If so I have no idea how you managed to stay reasonable on that forum!

Katrinamakingwaves · 05/09/2018 11:10

Also, graduated circa 2015/2016 so would have had to undertake post grad course of at least a year then a further year (barrister) or two years (solicitor) work before qualifying.

I wonder what the Law Society would make of someone holding themselves out as a lawyer, referring to attending court and having clients?

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