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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Open letter to a friend who thinks transwomen are women

28 replies

VickyEadie · 22/08/2018 09:36

medium.com/@tan.ith9/an-open-letter-to-my-friend-who-thinks-transwomen-are-women-491659de2efb

Great piece by Tanith Lloyd.

OP posts:
BeUpStanding · 22/08/2018 09:41

That is brilliant. I may well be forwarding that on to one of my friends...

Accidents · 22/08/2018 09:48

Good argument, nice writing and I agree. Sadly I am sorry to say, it doesn't hold my attention.

Accidents · 22/08/2018 09:53

I don't know if RedToothbrush has been suspended for six weeks, has taken a break or something else. I remember her advice about breaking through to cult members, this will not do it. I don't profess to be an exciting writer myself - I don't put myself forward as a professional.

Sparkletastic · 22/08/2018 09:55

What a calm, compassionate and intelligent letter.

Sparkletastic · 22/08/2018 09:55

It completely held my attention.

VickyEadie · 22/08/2018 10:00

Accidents

Sadly I am sorry to say, it doesn't hold my attention.

How do you mean? You said "Good argument, nice writing and I agree."

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 22/08/2018 10:24

Women cant win.
If we are passionate we are perceived as hysterical, and are told we need to write using calm logic and facts to support our argument.
When we do that we are boring and can't hold peoples attention.

LangCleg · 22/08/2018 10:26

Welcome to Mumsnet, Accidents! Interesting first posts!

LangCleg · 22/08/2018 10:28

I always think Tanith writes with great clarity and patience. This article is excellent. But I bet it doesn't get the fawning that Jonny Best's article did. Wonder why?

TransplantsArePlants · 22/08/2018 10:29

Good letter

LaContessaDiPlump · 22/08/2018 10:34

Oh, I like that....

Racecardriver · 22/08/2018 10:43

It didn't hold my attention either. Lacked substance. It was DM quality writing. Not borderline illiterate but lacking anything particularly interesting. Analogies were a bit clumsy and arguments were wishy washy. Little evidence of anything.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 22/08/2018 10:45

"The ‘born in the wrong body’ idea goes beyond poststructuralist ideas about gender into quasi-religious terrain. How can anyone have an innate, pre-experience knowledge of what it means to be the other sex? What does that even entail? Being male or female refers to your reproductive sex. To argue otherwise is akin to arguing for gendered souls."

This is what had always got me: the idea of innate gender which, in reality, is just a faith based belief system. I can understand that some people are repulsed by their body (and there are many expressions of this) or feel worthless and self-loathing. But these people are insisting on acceptance of metaphysics as science and harking back to crass Victorian biological essentialism and notions of feminine essence.

Accidents · 22/08/2018 10:50

Well I did to that what I do to many TRA pieces, I read a few paragraphs and stopped. I found it dull to read.

Not everyone likes the same authors and genres of book.

This person can write, I agree TWANW, they don't write in a style that holds my interest.

When did GC feminists become the borg and not allowed to hold a critical opinion?

VickyEadie · 22/08/2018 11:01

When did GC feminists become the borg and not allowed to hold a critical opinion?

It was simply that the two things you said were contradictory - you said

"Good argument, nice writing and I agree."

But then

"Sadly I am sorry to say, it doesn't hold my attention."

I didn't understand. Of course you can criticise - but your comments confused me.

OP posts:
nauticant · 22/08/2018 11:04

The content of the piece seems fine. However, I don't like open letters seemingly directed to an individual.

Accidents · 22/08/2018 11:16

I didn't understand.

I appreciate the argument, that the author can write and that TWANW.

It is not a style that holds my attention or that I enjoy.

If you are trying to change hearts and minds, you need to reach as many people as possible and hold their attention or you are alone talking to the wind.

LangCleg · 22/08/2018 11:56

This reminded me of CS Lewis’ argument that Jesus was either Lunatic, Liar, or Lord. Like CS Lewis, this activist excluded another possibility: simply being mistaken, which is where I sit.

I think this is both overly kind (especially with regards to middle class activists who will not see the inherent classism in throwing the most vulnerable women under the bus) and also true. I like the reference: it made me think.

It is nonsense to suggest that nuanced arguments like this won't win hearts and minds. They will win some hearts and minds. Just like the robust humour of ManFriday or penis stickers will win some hearts and minds. Dismissing useful work because it doesn't chime with your own personal preferences for activism or political argument - that is saying GC feminism should be a monolith.

Accidents · 22/08/2018 12:07

Nobody is saying don't share it. I offered an opinion, you don't agree, do as you please.

tiredandweary · 22/08/2018 12:18

Great letter and all part of the growing rich tapestry of feminist thinking. We need letters like this just as much as we need stickerwomen, ManFriday, the Daily Mail, JonnyBest and WPUK etc.
We need to speak to everyone - and make them bloody listen.

TransplantsArePlants · 22/08/2018 12:52

The letter is written for a particular audience. It will not resonate with everyone.

TransplantsArePlants · 22/08/2018 12:53

Agree Lang

RedToothBrush · 22/08/2018 13:35

I don't know if RedToothbrush has been suspended for six weeks, has taken a break or something else.
I'm 100% still here. No ban or suspension or anything else. Just taking a bit of a twitter / MN break over the summer for my sanity.

In terms of 'breaking the cult' I think no it doesn't work. People who are that involved aren't going to listen. They have already made up their minds. Changing someone's mind is a difficult thing to do. The stronger the opinion the harder it is to get through. Its not just about the opinion but how that opinion sits with your identity and sense of pride.

But if its an open letter, its not just directed at being read by a single individual. Whilst its about an individual, its supposed to be read by lots of people.

The silent reader who does have an opinion which is much less rigid and fixed. And those are people you can influence.

Whether thats 'fair' is another matter. There is a certain amount of passive aggressiveness in writing about someone who you know has said they are not interested in the conversation and making it 'an open letter'. Open letters about people are possibly not good manners and aren't going to endeer you to a whole bunch of people - which might rather undermine the point you were trying to make in the first place.

So it does serve a purpose, but its not really intended to be only for the eyes of the friend whom its about and definitely has some problems in achieving its goal of being persuasive to people who are not already gender critical. It has the effect of being more likely to be preaching to the converted instead.

Changing someone's mind is a long process. The wisdom of this generally as follows:

  1. The mistake is to assume that people have opinions based on facts and logic rather than emotion.
  2. The more evidence you provide therefore doesn't necessarily mean it will change opinions; indeed it can often have the opposite effect and cause people to switch off, get their backs up or otherwise not want to engage.
  3. You need to get people on side and find common ground first. Agreeing with someone about certain shared values and goals is hugely important to establish a new direction of conversation.
  4. You then can reframe the issue from how it has been initially presented. Come in from a different angle. Put emphasis in a different way or an area of concern which you both share. If you do this you can have a different conversation and a different debate where views are not entrenched in the same way.
  5. Introducing alterative explanations or outcomes or solutions to the problem then becomes possible. Again this provides a way to reframe the debate and doesn't go over the same ground over and over again.
  6. This is all about trying to get people to 'think' again rather than just repeat the same things they have been taught. This is why you'll see a pattern in trying to return certain subjects to ground which is well trodden - like toilets. Give people the opportunity to repeat well known slogans, just means they remain in the same safe rut of a lack of thinking.
  7. Providing a way to save face or climb down without compromising themselves or their values is essential. 'Its not as simplistic as it appears on the surface' is a good starting point to this as well as stressing that you understand the thought process of being supportive of the trans agenda.

Rememberi

RedToothBrush · 22/08/2018 13:47

Remembering that accidentally switching your keyboard off, is not very helpful.

As I was saying, remembering not trying to alienate the opposite side is crucial to the conciliation and the reconciliation process.

Anger and creating anger is only helpful in certain ways; you also need to understand how to do the opposite in order to progress and bring people along with you. The alternative is to force them against their will, which does not end ignorance nor prejudice.

cushioncovers · 22/08/2018 14:06

I tried to read it all but it was a bit waffly and long winded.