Janice Turner in the Times - outstanding article

[enoughisenoughtoday]

Excellent article about Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, girls and the recent research published by Lisa Littman. Janice has nailed it!

Share token here:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-teenagers-have-become-an-experiment-87vn5m8fw?shareToken=58711ec61b97f6076057ea98c30ebf5a

To the pp who challenged the premise of the research. Of course this is valid research. Why wouldn't the perspectives of the parents of children who suddenly announced they were trans be valid? They raised those children and knew them before they came out trans and after.

Interviewing parents is an accepted part of psychiatric research in children and adolescents; there are standardised tools to do this. It's a really important part of symptom screening and building the complete picture because ill children often will have no perspective of time, for example, or cultural differences, or family history, whether they're talking to a researcher or a medical professional. When you're researching with adults it's common to talk to family members too,

Back in the mists of time I spent a good part of my working life doing exactly that, so...not to be rude, but objecting to the parent contribution here is pretty much talking outta your hat.

Sarah
I cannot believe your posts still irritate me enough to take some time to respond to them, despite previous posters having tackled your points. I think it is mainly the tone I perceive in your writing and the bad-faith argument. But I am grateful to you in a way for continually challenging these threads. If only to help me clarify my thoughts.

I have only seen this mentioned as an issue for one trans child - Jazz Jennings. Giving testosterone to trans boys results in a massive increase in sex drive and growth of a micro penis.
Like previous posters have written, re-naming organs does not make them actual other organs. A heart is a heart, it does not become a liver just because you call it a liver. And should it not be considered shameful that we aren't more worried about whether the trans children's sexual function in adulthood will be permanently affected? Why aren't we thinking and talking about this more?

Triptorelin, not Lupron is used in the UK. Janice could have described Lupron as a licensed drug used for the treatment of precious puberty, but she wants to make it sound scary so uses "cancer drug". Also, she does not explain what "off label" means. Triptorelin has been tested and found to be safe for use with children. Why it is off label is because the drug companies have not spent the money conducting research to prove it is beneficial for trans children. However, there is plenty of other research that indicates puberty blockers are beneficial.
Triptolin also has a long list of potential side effects... ( www.drugs.com/sfx/triptorelin-side-effects.html ) Pretty much most of the drugs given for transition are given "off label" because they haven't been licensed specifically for these uses. Here is the GMC description, in case you haven't seen it:
Most of the medications used for the treatment of gender dysphoria are not licensed for this specific indication, although GPs will be familiar with their use in primary care for other purposes. Our guidance allows for prescribing outside the terms of the licence ('off-licence') where this is necessary to meet the specific needs of the patient, and where this is no suitably licensed medicine that will meet the patient's needs.
( www.gmc-uk.org/ethical-guidance/ethical-hub/trans-healthcare#prescribing )
We don't know what the long-term effects of the treatment of these drugs will be, because this is all so new! What we do know is that we are potentially raising a generation of people who have never gone through their natural puberty, and never even achieved fertility. They will have made that choice when they are pre-pubescent. The idea that we are merely "buying time" is highly questionable, because every action will potentially have knock-on effects. If you're a child whose parents are giving you medication to be live as a different gender than your sex, then it's not inconceivable that you are now going to be more locked into the medical transition path. This is why the Tavi advises a gentle wait-and-see approach even for social transitioning in young children, so that if a child changes their mind later they do not have as great a barrier to come back to the gender identity of their birth sex.

I don't think anyone is arguing that trans women's brains are hard wired to like pink or such. It does not particularly matter what weight it is environment and what weight it is biology (although some twin studies have shed some light on this). What is more important is that for the vast majority of individuals with gender dysphoria their gender identity is immutable and causes life long misery unless they receive the appropriate treatment.
Nope, you have it wrong again. Have you sen the discussions around "brain science" on this subject? Trans ideology really needs us to buy into the idea that women are hard-wired to be feminine. Trans activists are using precisely gender stereotypes to explain being "trans," which I think propagates an idea that children who do not feel comfortable with these stereotypes are trans. What you're also glossing over is that biological sex is immutable, and transitioning can cause life-long misery for the person if it is actually the wrong choice for them (due to infertility and permanent bodily alterations). We know that at least half of all children who develop a trans identity desist.

Pure scapegoating. The campaign for rights for trans children to receive the appropriate medical treatment is being lead by Mermaids, run by Susie Green, a non-trans women. Stonewall is led by Ruth Hunt a non-trans woman. And Gires by Terry Reed a non-trans women and her husband Bernie a non-trans man. Any social contagion is due to interaction with their peers and viewing posts by trans guys (e.g. vlogs) on the internet
You MUST know you are cherry picking. The most prominent trans activists in the media are trans women... It's not even close. Mermaids has some very questionable history, which has been discussed on this board before. And why haven't you mentioned Action for Trans Health, led by Jess Bradley, a trans woman, who have trained the NHS and seem to want to de-medicalize the transition process as much as possible?
I think it's very troubling that you're not worried about social contagion. Why aren't you concerned that children/young females may be making these permanent medical decisions for the wrong reasons?

Sarah

Are you actually suggesting Susie Green is an unbiased authority? Won't say anymore but you really are grasping at straws.

Giving testosterone to trans boys results in a massive increase in sex drive and growth of a micro penis.

A micro penis which these trans boys can then use to urinate & ejaculate?

No?

Wonder why not?

A "micropenis" is an enlarged clitoris.

It's not a penis

Transplants aren't plants, despite my name

Oh dear Sarah. Why do you bother? You undermine your own cause.

Apologies for using non-trans, but the c word is banned on Mumsnet)
*
The word you are looking for Sarah is "woman".*

I can't believe Biology had to TELL you this! Fuck me.🤨 Sarah...have you actually lost your fucking mind?

Excellent article. Let's hope it helps turn the tide

from the article

Unreported was the bleak truth: if children take the puberty-blocking drug Lupron then proceed to cross-sex hormones they won’t have any fertility to preserve. Their gametes can’t mature enough to bank. Indeed if your natal puberty is blocked you may never orgasm or feel sexual desire. Imagine the outcry if, say, disabled children were effectively neutered at 11

We don't think kids have the knowledge & experience required to allow them to choose their diet to the extent they'd prefer, because of the consequences for their long term health and well-being.

But their gender, and the the consequences of that, just hunky dory.

Alice, meet Wonderland, 2018 style.

Yet we have advocates from Mermaids posting tweets such as this (screenshot) wrt puberty blockers....

There's very much an attempt to portray blockers as benign when that's simply not true.

Giving testosterone to trans boys results in a massive increase in sex drive and growth of a micro penis.

Jesus christ.

So I have a (very) micro penis ? Who knew.
Excellent article from Janice. I have a friend whose daughter is in the midst of ROGD. The thought of her being physically damaged for an agenda led by middle aged fetishists is heartbreaking.

Giving testosterone to trans boys results in a massive increase in sex drive and growth of a micro penis.

And we all know how much men yearn for a micro penis, don't we.

hackmum

Would it be very inappropriate to do the "micropenis/pocket/pleased to see me?" joke?

Yes?

Won't do it then

Thinking back to being a teenage girl, does anyone think a 'massive increase in sex drive' (whether with an enlarged clit or not) sounds like a remotely good idea? well, except to someone who wants to have sex with teenage girls, that is.

To be clear, I do realise SarahAr said that to try to counter the point about some transed kids never being able to orgasm (boy->TG I assume?) but two wrongs don't make a right.

I guess the enlarged clitoris might be useful if you decide to invest in a Peecock

peecockproducts.com/

I am speechless.

Autism can't be diagnosed securely without a detailed interview with a parent or other close family member.
ADHD is the same. A friend had to take her 60-something dad to her appointment to get a diagnosis as an adult!

What is more important is that for the vast majority of individuals with gender dysphoria their gender identity is immutable and causes life long misery unless they receive the appropriate treatment.
Even if we were to accept that the vast majority of gender dysphoric children would be miserable going through puberty (which I don't), that doesn't mean that it is in their best interests to prevent them going through that puberty and transition them to their new gender, with all of the permanent life-changing effects that would involve.

There is a lot of brain development that happens alongside puberty. It is not yet known what effect preventing puberty will have on this important process.

And what about those who do change their mind in their 20s? They are infertile, may have no sex drive, may have had body changing surgery.

This is an excellent article. Parents need to be very worried about their children.

If you believe that the 'gender' of people who are gender dysphoric is immutable, then surely you also believe that the same applies to those who are not dysphoric? So it is absolutely essential to get the correct diagnosis before embarking on such profound physical changes. The policy of affirmation and excluding parental input does not seem compatible with full exploration of why each individual child is identifying as trans.

Where there are clusters of school kids identifying as trans, it's simply not credible that they're all dysphoric. This is particularly clear in the case of girls where it seems there are now quite a few ... but no corresponding numbers of adult women wishing to transition now it's no longer so taboo as in the past.

Autism can't be diagnosed securely without a detailed interview with a parent or other close family member.

To be pedantic (sorry, but I have autism and so this is my default): the interview should be with someone who knows the person's developmental history. When I was assessed (as an adult) my father was sent a detailed questionnaire and then interviewed by telephone before a diagnosis was made. He was asked questions about my developmental milestones (walking, talking etc) and how I interacted with my family.

Thanks Terfsup for the clarification.

The point being that to be diagnosed with a lifelong condition such as autism, you can't just look at a snapshot of someone's life.

But to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and to embark on treatment with irreversible effects, surgery, where you would have thought being confident that this is a lifelong condition is really important, self reporting of symptoms is fine?

But to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and to embark on treatment with irreversible effects, surgery, where you would have thought being confident that this is a lifelong condition is really important, self reporting of symptoms is fine?

By children, too.

terfsup
Mind if I message you about autism? I’m in the middle of an assessment for my teen daughter, and have a few questions.

Feel free, TheFemaleGaze. I am more than happy to answer questions about my experience of being assessed by the Autism Research Centre. (In other words, I can't tell you about what happens when a person is diagnosed by other centres.)