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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner in the Times - outstanding article

75 replies

enoughisenoughtoday · 18/08/2018 00:53

Excellent article about Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, girls and the recent research published by Lisa Littman. Janice has nailed it!

Share token here:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-teenagers-have-become-an-experiment-87vn5m8fw?shareToken=58711ec61b97f6076057ea98c30ebf5a

OP posts:
Iused2BanOptimist · 18/08/2018 10:22

Excellent article. Regarding the EHRC demand that the NHS offer fertility treatment to teens/children before they have trans treatment I wonder if this could backfire? The obvious answer is for fertility specialists to point out that there will be nothing to work with after administration of puberty blockers and to insist the only way to preserve fertility is not to give this treatment in the first place. Do no harm.

vicviking · 18/08/2018 10:23

Brilliant article Janice.
To the pp who challenged the premise of the research. Of course this is valid research. Why wouldn't the perspectives of the parents of children who suddenly announced they were trans be valid? They raised those children and knew them before they came out trans and after. Why should we dismiss their insights and then listen to a bunch of mostly male TRAs who don't care about teenaged girls and so dismiss the existence of ROGD to suit their agenda.

SarahAr · 18/08/2018 10:56

Another day, another transphobic hate piece by Janice Turner in the Times. So much wrong with it, but here are a few highlights:

Indeed if your natal puberty is blocked you may never orgasm or feel sexual desire
I have only seen this mentioned as an issue for one trans child - Jazz Jennings. Giving testosterone to trans boys results in a massive increase in sex drive and growth of a micro penis.

But where is the ethical debate and long-term research into how Lupron — a prostate cancer drug used “off label” on children — affects brain development at puberty?
Triptorelin, not Lupron is used in the UK. Janice could have described Lupron as a licensed drug used for the treatment of precious puberty, but she wants to make it sound scary so uses "cancer drug". Also, she does not explain what "off label" means. Triptorelin has been tested and found to be safe for use with children. Why it is off label is because the drug companies have not spent the money conducting research to prove it is beneficial for trans children. However, there is plenty of other research that indicates puberty blockers are beneficial.

They will do anything but admit that what Dr Littman has termed “rapid onset gender dysphoria” among girls is a social contagion, because this undermines their key ideological principle, that gender is not constructed but innate

I don't think anyone is arguing that trans women's brains are hard wired to like pink or such. It does not particularly matter what weight it is environment and what weight it is biology (although some twin studies have shed some light on this). What is more important is that for the vast majority of individuals with gender dysphoria their gender identity is immutable and causes life long misery unless they receive the appropriate treatment.

The trans movement is mainly led by trans women, who never experienced the maelstrom of female puberty, its intense but fleeting certainties. Some transitioned late after fathering children. What do they care about the fertility of troubled girls?

Pure scapegoating. The campaign for rights for trans children to receive the appropriate medical treatment is being lead by Mermaids, run by Susie Green, a non-trans women. Stonewall is led by Ruth Hunt a non-trans woman. And Gires by Terry Reed a non-trans women and her husband Bernie a non-trans man. Any social contagion is due to interaction with their peers and viewing posts by trans guys (e.g. vlogs) on the internet.

(Apologies for using non-trans, but the c word is banned on Mumsnet)

CholloDeNombre · 18/08/2018 11:01

Giving testosterone to trans boys results in a massive increase in sex drive and growth of a micro penis.

Citation needed.

Triptorelin has been tested and found to be safe for use with children.

Citation needed.

the vast majority of individuals with gender dysphoria their gender identity is immutable and causes life long misery unless they receive the appropriate treatment.

Citation needed.

See how this works?

Butterymuffin · 18/08/2018 11:01

I don't think anyone is arguing that trans women's brains are hard wired to like pink or such.

Really? That seems very much the message from trans activists to me.

terryleather · 18/08/2018 11:11

Giving testosterone to trans boys results in a massive increase in sex drive and growth of a micro penis.

A clit and a penis are not the same organ no matter the size, so a micro penis is not an enlarged clit.

No one has ever pissed out of a clit ffs.

ChattyLion · 18/08/2018 11:39

I didn’t think it was possible for me to ❤️ prochoice, gender-critical hero Janice Turner any more than I already did.. happy to say this article has proved me wrong. Grin She is awesome.

ChattyLion · 18/08/2018 11:41

Growth of a micro penis?

Hmm Do you know what a penis actually is?! Hint: You have to be born with one.
BiologyIsReal · 18/08/2018 11:45

(Apologies for using non-trans, but the c word is banned on Mumsnet)

The word you are looking for Sarah is "woman".

borntobequiet · 18/08/2018 11:45

Not sure what the point of a micro penis, if such a thing existed, would be. Drug fuelled massive increase in sex drive? I would think that problematic to deal with, especially as it would not necessarily result in a satisfactory sexual relationship.

TransplantsArePlants · 18/08/2018 11:48

Sarah

We don't believe you

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 18/08/2018 11:54

Sarah, you are missing facts with the effect of testosterone on female biology.

Vaginal atrophy is horrible - itching and burning sensations are not nice at all. This was missed as a side effect because the growth of the clitoris got everyone excited incase you could delude yourself that it is, in fact, a little penis.

Buck Angel, a very masculine looking trans-man who makes a living in adult films and is well known because of his impressive transition, nearly died because his vaginal atrophy stuck the vaginal walls together. He still produced gunk from his ovaries etc, it went septic - and so did he. He nearly died in ITU because no one had thought beyond "wow, that looks so masculine".

I'm sorry, but you are wrong, and Janice is right.

This whole situation is an abomination.

AnneEyhtMeyer · 18/08/2018 12:01

Janice Turner is fantastic on this subject. This needs to be shared widely.

Starkstaring · 18/08/2018 12:04

Autism can't be diagnosed securely without a detailed interview with a parent or other close family member.

Why are the experience and knowledge of children by their own parents not needed for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Except in Lisa Littman's article cited by Janice (see other threads) parents have been ignored, belittled, vilified for challenging the self-diagnosis of their teenage and young adult children.

Lets hope clinicians regain their professional integrity and stop substituting social justice for sound clinical judgement.

VickyEadie · 18/08/2018 12:10

SarahAr

Another day, another transphobic hate piece by Janice Turner in the Times. So much wrong with it

You describe the piece as a "transphobic hate piece" when all it's doing is presenting - quite bluntly - why putting children on these drugs is a bad idea. She points out - and you fail singularly to address this issue time and again - that trauma and social contagion are undoubtedly behind the massive rise in girls identifying as trans.

Why wouldn't you be interested in exploring safe ways of helping these children?

And again - calling expressions of concern "transphobic hate" don't do anyone any favours, because it's plainly ridiculous to do so.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 18/08/2018 12:23

Superb article

Thanks for the sharetoken OP

BoreOfWhabylon · 18/08/2018 12:30

Janice's article (as well as the comments by SilverLady), together with this 'Rapid Response' letter in the BMJ by some very eminent medics
www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k3371/rr-0
are making me very happy ghis morning

The tide is turning...

Datun · 18/08/2018 12:33

Giving testosterone to trans boys results in a massive increase in sex drive and growth of a micro penis.

No it doesn't. Don't be silly.

Do cross-sex hormones give transgirls a miniature clitoris or tiny vagina?

You mention Jazz Jennings, as though Jazz Jennings' experience and those of other children exactly like them, can just be dismissed!

Jazz Jennings has the genitals a prepubescent boy. With no material to create even the facsimile of female genitalia.

Jazz is infertile and has had no sexual feeling. At 17 years of age.

But I guess Jazz doesn't matter, if a girl's clitoris can become enlarged through the ingestion of hormones and you can pretend it's a penis.

Datun · 18/08/2018 12:42

It's also interesting to note in the comments that a poster, who is cross that transwomen are being held to account, accuses Janice and feminists of misandry.

AnchorMum · 18/08/2018 12:42

SarahAr it's not all about you.

Us parents of ROGD daughters and sons are sick of being branded transphobic.

We are sick of being silenced and of being called bigoted liars.

We are witnesses to our children's lives; we know them better than anyone else. We love them, want the absolute best for them, and are desperate to ensure their safety, wellbeing and future choices.

You demonstrate no empathy or concern for young people and their parents going through the hell that is ROGD.

Janice Turner's article shines a light on so much that we feel, and know to be true.

Thank you Janice.

VickyEadie · 18/08/2018 12:47

It's also interesting to note in the comments that a poster, who is cross that transwomen are being held to account, accuses Janice and feminists of misandry.

"Misandry" - can they hear themselves at all?

LangCleg · 18/08/2018 12:49

Sarah, FYI, this is a clitoris. No drug on earth will ever turn it into a penis, micro or otherwise. Collect yourself!

Janice Turner in the Times - outstanding article
Starkstaring · 18/08/2018 12:50

Well said Anchormum

Datun · 18/08/2018 12:57

AnchorMum

Flowers

I too, am sick to death of the rank sexism that turns a mother's love for her child into an attack on men.

But, I am grimly encouraging of comments like SarahAr's.

They consistently add a flashing neon light to the misogyny that underlines the ideology.

WaddIelikeapenguin · 18/08/2018 12:58

SarahAr
There are structural differences between a penis & a clitoris - changes in size cant ever change one to the other Confused
A really big bicycle is never a bus, a really small bus is never a bicycle Grin

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