South Korea women choosing to stay single and childfree

[sociopathsunited]

I thought this was an interesting article in the BBC stories - young South Korean women choosing a life without a husband or children.

This line stood out to me:

When I ask Yun-hwa how men see women in South Korea, she has a one-word answer: "Slave."

I'm so sorry but I've no idea how to make a clicky link, so I'll just pop it here and see if someone clever can do the magic.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45201725

ooooooh! It became clicky all by itself! I claim no credit.

I don't blame them.

Man, that article brings up some complex feelings for me, because it sounds like there are a number of factors at play. Economic issues, troublesome attitudes to working mothers and pregnancy, generational attitudes, domestic violence and revenge porn all feature... Lots to digest.

This quote stood out for me from Yun-hwa (she sounds like she has a way with words!):
"In this country, women are expected to be the cheerleaders of the men"

Thanks for sharing!

This sounds very similar to what I’ve read about Japan.

It will be very interesting to see what happens- whether men start to behave better and accept more equal relationships when the choices women make affect them, and how long it takes.

Interesting article. I’ve been watching a lot of K-drama lately & this explains the protagonists’ parents’ constant obsessing over marrying off their kids (especially to someone of the right social standing) and hand-wringing if their thirty-something adult children are still single.

Many of those factors also feel uncomfortably close to home.

The lowest birth rate in 2017 for the UK since the 1970s or 60s I think.

More single people than married in the US now.

It's happening everywhere across the globe.

Men are in real trouble. They just aren't adjusting to the way things are changing.

I think it’s a response to the faithfulness of men, why take a risk to have a baby with a man when he can fuck off and leave you on your own to raise them? I think a fair few are choosing to stay alone than the risk of that

*faithLESSness, fecklessness, etc

I found that article interesting. It would be lovely if they went down a Scandinavian route of giving parental leave to both parents and society expecting them both to take responsibility, but I suspect that they will choose a different route of govt sponsored cajoling or public shaming to try and push women to have more children.

Men appeared to have got the impression that feminism and women's rights meant we would all keep cooking, cleaning, raising children and shagging. But we would also work full-time, pay for everything and take all responsibility after divorce.

Women appear to be voting with their feet.

The Jordan Petersons of this world would see a link to incels here

Anyone remember the delightful 'enforced monogamy' comment?

I just worry that some people would genuinely see that as an answer

Fascinating, in the same way I find it fascinating that in parts of India they did that trial and realised the best way to have birth control (limit birth rate) is to educate women. Once a woman has education and financial independence she rarely has more than 1 or 2 kids (or none)

I have the impression from the partner of an extended family member that it is a very rule based society and one that is very protective of their culture.

The lady I know is U.K. based, but holds fast to her Korean values. So she is adamant that she will care for MIL, but doesn’t seem able to take on board MIL’s views on the matter. The whole thing is bound up with respect, honour and duty, but there is less talk of care, how e and compassion.

It also appears to be an unbelievably money orientated society, and I wonder to what extent this affects Women’s desire for children.

I was curious about the assumption that a woman would look after her In Laws in old age, so have done a brief search on the family structure and found what I hope is an accurate website.

asiasociety.org/education/value-and-meaning-korean-family

The reason that part caught my attention is because I'm of the age where I became a carer to my elderly mother for a decade, until she died a couple of years ago. In my situation, I was the one to do the caring, as I was close, physically, and the older brother who would have shared the caring (again, because he was local) had died before either parent.

But I know many many people in the same situation as I was, here, who DO have male siblings, who live closer to the aging parent than the woman does, who do absolutely nothing to help aging parents. It's deemed to be the "daughter's job" apparently.

I thought it was interesting that in Korea, it's the complete opposite. I expect it had a lot to do with the financial inheritance - the oldest son seemed to get everything, so he had to "earn" it, perhaps?

Really interesting article.
It will be very interesting to see what happens- whether men start to behave better and accept more equal relationships when the choices women make affect them, and how long it takes.
That's what I thought too. Women choosing not to marry and have children will start to have an impact. The question is will societies try to maintain the status quo (maybe through tax breaks for married couples, or tax relief for stay at home mums) or will they try to support a different model.

I found the whole "dementia tax" proposal very interesting for that reason. It seemed clear to me that the government were trying to incentivise families to care for elderly relatives - and of course in practice that would usually mean a woman giving up her job to provide care.

"Well, you're looking after the kids anyway, what's an 80 year old with alzheimers going to add to your workload, you've loads of free time whilst the kids are at school!!" Yep, "free time". I'm sure that my siblings meant, of course, to fully acknowledge the time they were speaking of was the time that was spent running my own business. But hey, it's only "working from home" so it can't be important.

Bitter, moi?

in Japan I thought it was the other way round? that it's the men choosing to stay single

Maybe it is, in Japan. I'm not sure. The article is about South Korea, from a young woman's perspective. Maybe men are similar in South Korea too?

I caught the beginning of this the other day on R4 - about the declining birth rate in Japan. I haven't listened to it yet though, so not sure if it's relevant but might be interesting -

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b01vgv

Almost cross posted with you there GreenGloves - was going to say I listened to the BBC world service podcast associated with the article about South Korea [[https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bbslsy]] and there are many men in the country also choosing not to marry and have kids. They don't suffer the same sex-based discrimination as their female counterparts, but many are rejecting strict societal pressures and expectations. The government are trying to remedy the situation by passing laws restricting working hours so people have more time to date and toughen up sex-based discrimination facing women in the workplace, but the general impression is that companies get around these laws. Also it said childcare places are still too scarce. It seems the issue is in many areas of that region. Neither country (Japan/S Korea) are particularly welcoming of immigration either, so a 1.01 kids per woman birth rate or whatever low rate they mentioned is something they will have to deal with. I agree though - I would certainly think twice about having a family with so many patriarchal attitudes still so common.

"It seems the issue is in many areas of that region. Neither country (Japan/S Korea) are particularly welcoming of immigration either, so a 1.01 kids per woman birth rate or whatever low rate they mentioned is something they will have to deal with"

Because they're planning to use robots and technology, rather than immigrants: www.cbsnews.com/news/japan-battles-population-decline-with-robots/

We're constantly told automation is going to make tons of people jobless in the west too, so it does rather call into question our own immigration policies too.

I would say as grass roots in Japan about my own experiences, it is never just one factor My own view in Japan (although similar to Korea not the same)
Low immigration
Expensive housing where will you put your kids?
Expensive cram school. How can I fund my kids ?
Long work hours for men, if you are too tired to do the deed an’t no babies.
Princess mentality of a lot of Japanese young woman. They don’t want to do the grind that their mother did but they don’t want to go out to work either.

Most Japanese woman have babies young by western standards.
People get trapped by the system they are in. I am in the suburbs and most have 2. I know people who are truly good friends come out with. Some terrible views.
Shockers such as ;
Oh I am only going to pay for her brother to o to cram school
It is such a shame she likes maths
I want her to go to a low entrance high school. She doesn’t Need the pressure but I hope her brother gets into blah blah.

Oh and grand parents setting up accounts and giving more money to grandsons and not granddaughters. Looking at you jiji and baba. Luckily, I am in a position where can balance it out but not everyone can