Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner in the Times "Frenzy about the burka is no help to women"

63 replies

Lefty99 · 12/08/2018 08:10

Does anyone have a share token for this article please? I seem to have used my allowance of Times articles for this week Blush

OP posts:
2rebecca · 13/08/2018 09:50

In Scotland you see hardly any woman in Niqab etc. I'd be happy with a ban, or a ban age under 18. It's sexist medieval attire that looks silly and instantly makes you classify these women as "other" where as the men can blend in.

Cheekyandfreaky · 13/08/2018 10:06

Just to add the list Leicester- there must be more than a thousand niqab wearers in the country.

I think if there was a ban, you would effectively confine some wearers to bring housebound. I work with about 10 niqab wearers and some of those people practise ‘purdah’ at home, where the only males welcome in their house are immediate family members. Some of these girls and women do not really access many public spaces as it is. None have implied that there is any pressure to wear the niqab.

Personally I’m not a fan but I also don’t like topless men walking around city centres when the sun comes out, I don’t like t-shirts which have offensive images (especially the ones of a semi- naked woman- normally worn by the aforementioned topless men when they feel a chill) and I think crocs and ugg boots are fugly.

Cheekyandfreaky · 13/08/2018 10:08

Also Boris Johnson’s hair is awful.

Juells · 13/08/2018 10:19

Also Boris Johnson’s hair is awful.

I used to wonder how Germans took Hitler seriously, what with his silly moustache and hair. But now that I've seen Trump and Johnson in action I think it's a deliberate ploy, people make jokes about the hair, it gets attention, makes them 'interesting'. He (Johnson) dyes his hair AFAIK, and deliberately musses it up to enhance the overgrown-schoolboy look. If he didn't have the hair, what would be noticeable about him? It makes him instantly noticeable.

2rebecca · 13/08/2018 10:25

Some niqab wearers may choose to be housebound. We wouldn't be confining them to the house, their husband/ family would be. It would reduce the number of women wearing it though and show that in the Uk it isn't considered appropriate attire for women in the same way wandering around naked isn't. people who want to wander around nude in public aren't described as being confined to the house.
This stuff is always about women. No-one did anything about FGM for years because "culture and inclusivity" now the same arguments are being used for the niqab. Some things don't deserve to be included.

LassWiADelicateAir · 13/08/2018 13:01

How can you assume that they are using fines only when we have cases of police forcing a woman to take off her clothes kn a beach in France and another man ripping the burka off another in Denmark?

Taco. No one posting here is obliged to answer or even read or even notice all posts. Demanding an answer to a post smacks of egoism.

I would expect anyone who refuses to remove it to be arrested and if need be taken to a police station where they will have no more right than any other masked person to refuse to remove a mask.

TacoLover · 13/08/2018 13:51

I didn't demand anythingConfused I just thought it was strange that you would deliberately ignore a question if you were so capable of answering it.

You use phrases such as 'I assume' and 'I expect' when it comes to how these women would be punished, even though we know of cases which I mentioned in my earlier post, so how can you still think that the only consequence would be fines or arrest as opposed to the cases already happening?

LassWiADelicateAir · 13/08/2018 13:55

I just thought it was strange that you would deliberately ignore a question if you were so capable of answering it

Oh fgs get over yourself "deliberately ignore a question" I didn't even notice the post you are making a fuss about. I have now however answered it at least twice.

hackmum · 13/08/2018 13:58

I don't know if anyone has shared this, but it's good:

unherd.com/2018/08/questioning-misogynistic-veil-isnt-racist/

The thing is, the face veil is a ridiculous garment. I despise Boris Johnson as much as the next person, but he's right about that.

LassWiADelicateAir · 13/08/2018 13:58

I don't know what the full consequences might be. However as Danish law prohibits full face covering masks in public the logical conclusion of a contonued refusal must be that they are forceably removed. I don't have an issue with that.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 13/08/2018 14:36

I like the key theme she follows: to what extent should personal choice be sacred cow that everyone else must respect, and where is the line between the right to freedom of personal choice and the boundaries imposed by the rights and interests of others?

hackmum · 13/08/2018 15:25

I very much agree with the line in the Jo Bartosch piece: "There is nothing more racist than thinking something is acceptable for ‘other’ people that you would not want for yourself."

It seems to me there is a difficulty in opposing the niqab, though. Some people say they oppose it because the women who wear it are oppressed and forced to wear it by men. Others say they oppose it because the women who wear it are doing so to make a religious and ideological statement - deliberately covering up their faces to show how pro-Islam they are and also in defiance of Western values.

And those are two very different things. How do you deal with them?

Obviously none of us believe women should be forced by their husbands into covering up their faces. But what good would banning it do? You're just criminalising the victims. That makes no sense.

As for women who are doing it deliberately, it's not great, but I can imagine that criminalising it would just make them more angry and more defiant. Positions would become more entrenched and polarised. And in any case, when you think of all the anti-social things people already do and get away with (dropping litter, urinating in the street, playing loud music in public etc) it seems a bit harsh to pick on women wearing veils. They aren't actually doing any harm; they're just looking slightly sinister.

So I don't see there's a lot we can do. And yet symbolically the face veil is very powerful - I feel very angry and alienated when I see women wearing one, because in so many other places it's used systematically to oppress women.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 13/08/2018 15:44

I'll go with Janice: personal choice as to what you wear, lovely. But in situations where this impinges on others there are boundaries which should be protected by law from challenge. So for example you can't expect to be able to carry out surgery dressed as a Klingon, and you can't expect to be able to teach a class or walk into a bank with a helmet on or your face covered.

This also tacitly keeps clear that it is perceived as a respected personal choice and moves away from supporting a religious or cultural belief that must be respected by all in all situations regardless.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread