Janice Turner in the Times "Frenzy about the burka is no help to women"

[Lefty99]

Does anyone have a share token for this article please? I seem to have used my allowance of Times articles for this week

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/frenzy-about-the-burka-is-no-help-to-women-9vvl725z6?shareToken=8e3326742df215642756b521b9be2ddd

Here you go

It's an excellent article, thanks for drawing attention to it.

I usually like Janice, but am uncomfortable with all the articles by non-Muslim British people on this topic. I grew up in the ME and a large number of my friends covered growing up, just as half of my Arab family cover now. It is, for the majority, a choice and not a burden; those who wished to drop it have done so.

Leaving aside the 'everyone has chosen their bunker' argument (which I think is possibly true), I believe that the women who have worn the veil/niqab for a long time have simply got used to it and would feel just as exposed and uncomfortable without it as I would if ordered to go out in a bra and pants alone.

Introducing a law where pressure to cover is a criminal offence: definitely a good idea. Bit otherwise: please just let women BE.

Thanks for raising the article, as usual well written by JT. Despite having a subscription (because I’m a fan of her writing) this hadn’t popped up when I browsed earlier.

She raises some interesting and difficult points. The issue isn’t as clear cut as women being oppressed by cultural practice vs freedom of expression/choice is it.

Are there really only around 1,000 UK women who wear niqab? Maybe it’s living in London but that feels like a low estimate to me. I know that’s beside the point.

@Starkstaring thanks so much for sharing

Stark/lefty how did you find the article in the first place? It’s not coming up when I scroll through either the app or the mobile site, logged in as a subscriber.

Racists are simply using the burka/niqab as another tool in their racism. That it's aimed entirely at women is no coincidence, given that racists tend to be violently misogynist also.

I wish women worldwide didn't feel the need or compulsion to cover themselves in this way. But 'bans' are simply a bad idea.

It was in yesterday's edition Cwen

This is today by another Times journalist with Kashmiri grandparents:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-niqab-row-the-veil-enslaves-and-it-isnt-racist-to-say-so-0fzkkdfvw?shareToken=569ed8b922abc3cdbccca8bae916e0b5

If the burka is, as she says, just a piece of clothing, this is how it should be regarded. Not as a sacred covering which must never be removed, lest it violates the wearer’s faith, but as a garment which, like shorts, is suitable in some circumstances and not others

But it isn't just a piece of clothing.

@Cwenthryth I saw it on Twitter.

I agree that racists are using the issue of the burka to further marginalised these women, however I think it's wrong the way that I see a lot of the "left" (in particular white men) defending the burka as if it's just another type of clothing and all down to personal choice. I don't agree with a ban but I do think it is problematic and we should be able to discuss the issue without being accused of racism. I quite like Maajid Nawaz's take on it.

twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1026766326277328896?s=09

I usually like Janice, but am uncomfortable with all the articles by non-Muslim British people on this topic. I grew up in the ME and a large number of my friends covered growing up, just as half of my Arab family cover now. It is, for the majority, a choice and not a burden; those who wished to drop it have done so

I utterly understand where you are coming from, but I have two 'buts'.

But number one is that I personally know women in some Islamic countries who are forced to wear the veil. If they don't, they are subject to heckling, spitting and threats of sexual abuse.

But number two is that when the veil is worn in (say) the UK it changes the way that gender, sex, women and girls are viewed - we live amongst the veil - why should we not comment?

Excellent article Igneococcus.
I,too, am dismayed at the number of small girls,some pre school,wearing hijabs. Their brothers aren't similarly restricted.

JTs guesstimate of 1000 niqab/burqa wearers seems way off the mark judging by what I observe on a daily basis. Besides,the numbers are certainly growing.
It's a misguided sign of separation and division. Not something we should be encouraging in British society.

But number two is that when the veil is worn in (say) the UK it changes the way that gender, sex, women and girls are viewed - we live amongst the veil - why should we not comment?

I am a white, UK born atheist. I have every right to comment on this. I support a ban.

I also think female children wearing hijab is absolutely awful. I'm not keen on adult women wearing it either to be honest for the signals of the need for modesty it gives out.

I usually like Janice, but am uncomfortable with all the articles by non-Muslim British people on this topic

I am far more uncomfortable with your suggestion that commenting on this issue should be off limits.

Janice Turner usually has a piece in the Comments section in the Saturday Times.

Also agree that the numbers seem way off - I saw a huge number of women in Manchester wearing full face covering on a recent visit - it was a shock as I hadn't been in many years. From overhearing their conversations, most of them seemed to be British-born and raised.

LassWiADelicateAir I didn't say that it should be off limits. However I do think there are parallels: men telling women how to do feminism, British non-Muslims telling British Muslims how to be Muslim. There's an element of polite 'Thank you for your thoughts' from Muslim women on this topic, I think.

I feel the same way about women in burqas as I do about men in motorcycle helmets or balaclavas. In our society walking around with a full face covering in public is considered downright hostile and potentially threatening. I am unhappy with the idea of an outright ban, but full face veils should be banned in schools, banks, hospitals and courts.

Here's a comment on the article that I found thought provoking:

I find it extremely surprising that no one ever seems to give a thought to the feelings of a vast number women in this country who find the sight of the garment not an indication of the wearer’s pious heart - though that may well be the way it is sold to those who actually choose to wear it here - but of historic and, as is the case for millions of women in the world, continued female subjugation.

The sight raises an inner alarm for we are painfully aware that for so very many women in the world there is no such choice but intense pressure often enforced by law or violent reprisal: the burka or niqab is no gentle gown.

Recently we read of those who wish to see removed from public view the statues and busts of nineteenth century industrialists with links to slavery, reputations of men long dead are being judged and condemned for involvement in colonialism. How extraordinary and mystifying then that those who feel deeply upset and concerned about the acceptance and normalisation of the niqab with its indisputable connection to continued oppression and exclusion of women from the ‘male’ public sphere, of sexual apartheid no less, should be so readily labelled as right wing and have their motivations questioned as being deeply unreasonable if not racist.

We are not simply concerned for our own feelings and historic wrongs but for the freedoms of future generations of females in this country, our possible grandchildren and great grandchildren, long after we are gone.

I did not use to think it should be banned but that it should be held up to scrutiny and criticism but it is clear that that is not to be allowed and therefore I feel is must be banned along with hijabs for girls of primary school age.

Are their really only 1000 women in the UK who wear the niqab?

I could well believe it. Since moving out of London I've seen absolutely zero women wearing it. Don't see women in other cities with it - though happy to be corrected.

Even in London, there were none in the area I lived although many little 5-6 yr old girls in hijab. If you went to specific areas of London you would see women in niqab but even there it wasn't all the women. And they'd be in groups of women who weren't all in niqab either.

I do suspect one woman in niqab visually counts as about 30 in the memory.

I'm happy to correct you AnnaMagnani
Have you been to Manchester, Leeds, Bradford, Birmingham,Blackburn,Bolton,Walsall or Coventry (for eg) lately?

I suggest you have a closer look.

Three of those yes. Including areas where you would see them. Still thinking you would struggle to make up massive numbers.

I find it extremely surprising that no one ever seems to give a thought to the feelings of a vast number women in this country who find the sight of the garment not an indication of the wearer’s pious heart - though that may well be the way it is sold to those who actually choose to wear it here - but of historic and, as is the case for millions of women in the world, continued female subjugation

I agree with that second article. I see the idea of choosing to wear a burqa and niqab as just one end of the line where choosing to be a prostitute or a stripper because that is so empowering is at the other end.

They all represent objectification of the female body. At one extreme the female body is so shameful and lust provoking it must be covered up and at the other extreme it is so shameful and lust provoking it must be displayed.

There's an element of polite 'Thank you for your thoughts' from Muslim women on this topic, I think

Really? The comment about being uncomfortable at Janice Turner did not come across that way at all; more thank you for your thoughts, but now shut up.

In our society walking around with a full face covering in public is considered downright hostile and potentially threatening.

Totally agree with this. It is a very hostile and culturally insensitive thing to do in the UK.

Also it is often second generation young women who 'choose' this hostile garb - some as a big 'fuck you!' to us infidels and there is a link with some pretty extremist views. Hair covering is fair enough if you feel uncomfortable about showing your hair, but covering your face is taking it to another level.

It needs to be tackled but it is tricky to, without stoking up cultural racism and misogyny. There are probably quite a lot of steps to take in preparation, rather than doing a 'ban'.

Yeah, I'm not in favour of doing a ban. There is just too much that can go wrong both for the women concerned, in provoking a backlash and in setting precedent for other bans.

Women in Iran didn't 'choose' to wear such restrictive clothing before they were forced to. When they had the choice they wore ordinary clothes.

www.google.com/search?q=women+in+iran+in+the+seventies&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjE-_S7s-fcAhVKKMAKHWPUCK0Q_AUICigB&biw=1252&bih=578