Faith and feminism

[Spindelina]

Inspired by another recent thread, I’d like to talk about feminism in the context of faith and/or faith in the context of feminism.

I grew up in a Quaker family, then took a detour via evangelicalism to somewhere in the middle. My feminism is more recent - really since having DD.

My church has become much less evangelical in the last decade or so. We started out on a path of wanting to “do good” and kind of realised that running the holiday lunch club was much more important than meeting on a Sunday morning.

I don’t have any particular questions, but I’d just like to chat. There were a lot of wise words said on the other thread.

victimfocus.wordpress.com/2018/08/04/why-i-dont-want-to-become-equal-to-men/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

This (which was linked to in fwr) screams “kingdom of god” at me.

I haven't had the chance to read this essay all the way through, but I like it so far.

www.tjed.org/2011/03/steel-gold-feminism-stateswomanship/

I'll have to come back to this thread later.

Cracking article at your link OP. 👍🏼🙂
And great idea for a thread.

Nervous of posting too much on this subject, but I do believe evangelical Christianity has an awful lot to answer for in terms of socially and culturally perpetuating the oppression of women. Amongst other things.

There was a good episode of The Guilty Feminist comedy podcast on faith and feminism. Episode 65 here
guiltyfeminist.com/episodes/

The whole question is really interesting.

OP This (which was linked to in fwr) screams “kingdom of god” at me. What do you mean?

The Quakers have always seemed to me like the only religion that is inherently feminist, with their idea that there is "that of God" within everyone. So to harm another person is to harm God, and because God is inside us all, we all have an equal status and the same rights to be speak and to be heard. I'm not religious, but I really like that concept.

That's not an exclusively Quaker idea, though. The 'imago dei' is common to most mainstream Christian traditions - all humanity made in the 'image of god'.

There's no question that Christianity has been the cradle of some pretty horrendous anti-woman shite. But I genuinely don't believe it is part of the 'core programming'.

As an eg, the story of Adam and Eve is hugely open to all sorts of interpretation. I remember it being used to clobber women for daring to have a spiritual thought outside the 'authority' of her husband and all sorts of related crap.

But my understanding of that story now, in the context of the whole teaching of my Church and life experience, is that humans want to be the ones to choose what is right and wrong, they completely cock it up most of the time, and they usually blame someone else when they do.

The sex of the characters in the story is entirely incidental, and simply illustrative of this trait being part of the psyche of all humanity.

The choice to be a misogynist douche is not inherent in religion, it is just that - a choice.

Christianity was not originally at all misogynist.
The first witness of the Resurrection - the most cataclysmic event in Christianity - was a woman, Mary of Magdala, who then took the news to the male disciples.
Jesus had male and female disciples- some of the females were wealthy and funded his preaching, including, I think, the wife of Herod’s steward.
Jesus often told parables in pairs, one that would be understood by men (eg the lost sheep) and one by women (the coin lost in the house) among his audience.
Far from approving sexist male attitudes, He saved a woman from being stoned to death for adultery.
There are contemporaneous wall paintings of St Paul preaching alongside women, and references to women running churches in Asia Minor, in his epistles.
God chose to incarnate Himself as human via the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. Men had nothing whatever to do with it, let alone a dominant role!
All the patriarchal crap arrived when the Roman Empire made Christianity their established religion. The Romans were militaristic, chauvinist and repressive- textbook examples of toxic masculinity. And it was all downhill from there, until belatedly we now have women ministers and bishops in the Protestant churches, and are beginning to re-evaluate the role of women in the Bible and church society generally.

OP This (which was linked to in fwr) screams “kingdom of god” at me. What do you mean?

There’s this idea that as Christians, we should be building the kingdom of god here and now, right? Jubilee - good news for the poor, and stuff like that. And then you get all sorts of ideas about how one might do that. I would suggest that disassembling patriarchy might be a start. And that without doing so, especially as it exists within the church, we’re not going to get very far.

Re Quakerism and equality, I don’t think the “different but equal” idea is incompatible.

Hoping I can learn from this thread.

*The sex of the characters in the story is entirely incidental,"

Really? I mean really?

I was brought up as Catholic and do practice, but I can see clearly how, in so many ways, it is misogynistic. The whole issue of male priesthood drives it. Men seeking their own power.

Jesus was ANYTHING but misogynistic. He was a rebel and a rouser...had no respect for men in positions and was a true friend to women.

One thing I particularly like is Mary's status. She is honoured (not worshipped) as the most wonderful human being God ever created.

In fact, people in Catholicism often say it is the devil's jealousy of Mary that led him to be thrust from Heaven to Hell. The Angel Lucifer could not stand that a human would be superior to him.

This links to men's abuse of women...one line of thought is that the devil coerces men to attack and abuse women in degrading ways as he will always remain utterly envious that Mary is superior. He sees every woman in her image.

The sex of the characters in the story is entirely incidental

I wondered about that too. I thought the story was more about explaining why men and women have different social roles: God punishes them differently because they've committed different offences. Mind you the woman wasn't even created when God told the man not to eat the fruit and I always thought that was a bit unfair. But maybe the people who wrote the story knew it was unfair? And maybe we can read it differently today?

@Italiangreyhound sorry it’s taken me a while to tag you - had to look up the correct spelling of your name!

I don't read the genesis story as God punishing either - I see the whole 'your husband will rule over you' as the consequence of disobeying. So, it's a bad thing that God wanted them to avoid, iyswim.

Obviously I sound like I'm talking about Adam and Eve as real people, but I'm not a biblical literalist, and see it as a story with a purpose, rather than a historical account.

But yes, I definitely think that the purpose of having a male and a female character was to represent the entire human race, rather than to suggest that one was more responsible than the other.

FloralBunting I really like your reading.

It seems to me that the misogynism in organised religion is imposed by men in organising and expanding the religion.

Fundamental to many (most?) religions, I understand, is Love Thy Neighbour (or variants of that) and mindfulness of your behaviour and its consequences. They seem to me to be good philosophies for life, whether or not you include any concept of deity. And they fit very neatly with feminism.

Sometimes when people focus only on practicing the rituals of religion, the rituals become more important than the ethic. The religion becomes about controlling people, rather than guidance. Misogyny is a fundamental part of controlling people.

Hi all,
Just found this thread and thought I’d join in. Apologies for my lack of eloquence I’m still fairly new to posting.
I’m from the Sikh religion, the last year or so I have been trying to learn a lot more about my faith and more recently,about the role of women in my religion. I have found historical examples of women who showed bravery and were fearless in times of hardship and war. Women who were warriors.
In regards to religious instruction, Sikh women have the right to lead a prayer congregation in full, whilst the numbers are less than male priests more women are getting involved day by day.

Religious Sikh scriptures also note the importance of women in society.

Just to add, I’m enjoying reading all your posts and gaining insight into your beliefs.

daughter very happy to have you on board! I was hoping that women of faiths other than mine might join in.

Did any of you see the documentary 'Did God Have A Wife?' www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ik5oi

It puts forward the evidence (biblical and archeological) that monotheism was actually scribes retconning Israel's religion after the Babylonian invasion. It is very illuminating from a feminist perspective.

I shall have a gander tomorrow after work, Clarice. I'm always interested in the various theories around the infancy and evolution of religion, particularly with reference to feminist readings.
I love Glastonbury, for example, and the Goddess Festival there is a brilliant place for a really big dose of feminine divine energy. It's mostly cobbled together neo paganism, though no less compelling for that. I think sometimes we fall into a trap of thinking older=better when it comes to religious tradition, which can sometimes be true, but other times is just irrelevant because it's neither here nor there.

So, for example, there's the theory that matriarchal religion predates patriarchal monotheism, based largely on all the lovely fecund statues from antiquity. Which can't be proved, and doesn't really matter very much, because the reconstructed feminist Goddess religions of neo paganism have a compelling power anyway.

It's like the dozy sod trying to convince us that patriarchal oppression arose out of mammoth hunting and has been around for 200,000 years so has some kind of historical pedigree. Why are we playing that game?

I'm having a ramble and should really go to sleep now. I shall see ye all anon.

You'll love the documentary I'm sure It is 1 hour, but really well paced and the presentation of the evidence is compelling. I am so tempted to give spoilers which are pertinent to some of the discussion on the thread but i'll contain myself.

There is an absolutely fantastic book called "Jesus feminist" by Sarah bessey which touches on many of these issues and which I'd highly recommend.

I'm a bit tipsy after dinner, but I will be back to join the thread tomorrow. I was raised catholic but am now a unitarian.

floral
"The sex of the characters in the story is entirely incidental, and simply illustrative of this trait being part of the psyche of all humanity."

I believe you are right. The man blamed the woman, the womam blamed the serpent. However, that story has been used to blame women for evil entering the world.

@Spindelina thanks for tagging me in.

@GrainneWail what're the key things about brinh Unitarian, and what made upi choose to change from Roman Catholic, may I ask?