Faith and feminism

[Spindelina]

Inspired by another recent thread, I’d like to talk about feminism in the context of faith and/or faith in the context of feminism.

I grew up in a Quaker family, then took a detour via evangelicalism to somewhere in the middle. My feminism is more recent - really since having DD.

My church has become much less evangelical in the last decade or so. We started out on a path of wanting to “do good” and kind of realised that running the holiday lunch club was much more important than meeting on a Sunday morning.

I don’t have any particular questions, but I’d just like to chat. There were a lot of wise words said on the other thread.

A lot of reasons really, Italiangreyhound. I suppose the usual lapsed Catholic disenchantment about same sex relationships, divorce (and my mum was very hurt that "her church" seemed so unwelcoming - on a structural level rather than individuals - after a divorce she didn't instigate) and celebacy, which was compounded when I started thinking about how women are so vital to the real, on going work of the RC church with so little opportunity for formal engagement and acknowledgement. The unitarians drew me in with their openness and a more democratic feel. The idea that we are all on a journey, together and solo, to find whatever is our individual truth is important to me. And our minister is an amazing woman who is kind and generous with her ministry and makes me think about things in a new light. She takes about 60% of our services so opposing or different voices from within and without the congregation are welcome too, as long as they are offered in a sincere way.

Sorry, I had included paragraphs when I typed that wall of text!

“One thing I particularly like is Mary's status. She is honoured (not worshipped) as the most wonderful human being God ever created.“

Because she submitted unquestioningly to God’s will, and was “concieved without sin”. Not exactly a role model I would like for my daughters.

GrainneWail thank you.

BertrandRussell it's only the Roman Catholic church that believes she was conceived without sin, as far as I'm am aware.

I like Mary's status in RC religion too. That and all the other female saints. One of the reasons I chose Catholicism when I knew I wanted to remain a Christian was because of the active feminine presence in it as a whole.

Here is a religion that says the most important human who ever lived, the role model for the Christian life in fact, is a young Jewish girl who was so selfless that she accepted an enormous task that she knew would cause her to be scorned by her society, and possibly even killed for it.

Who responded to seeing an other-worldly being with a beautiful hymn that talks about social justice.

Who was then at the most significant moments of Christ's life on earth, and the birth of the Church.

I get the fact that people have used her over the centuries as a stick to beat women with - but I maintain that her virginity is not about her, it's a theological point to highlight that Jesus didn't have a human father, and the immaculate conception (which is when she was conceived) is a rather obscure devotional idea linked to the Ark of the Covenant and ritual, rather than moral purity, primarily. It's meant to speak of someone being prepared for a mission.

Clarice, I'm going to try and watch that link later, had a bonkers busy few days at work.

Bertrand I'm speaking more of where she was, we are..and where she is, we hope to be. Every awful thing that can happen to a person happened to her so she is someone we can relate to. She was pregnant and alone, her child went missing, and then she watched her son die a horrific death.

I am happy for my daughters to have this amazingly strong woman as a role model.

And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

I read that as Adam trying to swerve responsibility: "Her fault! And your fault 'cos you gave her to me! And - I didn't think!"

And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

I read that as Eve recognising her actions "I listened to someone and let them choose for me."

Seems to me that Adam was a blind follower, whereas Eve understood the power of choice. So it was a good thing that she disobeyed God and ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge: it complemented her ability to choose with the knowledge of the difference between good and evil, so that she could choose between them. Perhaps it's telling us that women are more advanced thinkers than men.

Really well said Floral. I love Mary. I love her strength and guts and her care for people, especially the poor and displaced....even when pregnant at such a young age. And to accept everything....even when told as a youngster that a sword did pierce her heart....what courage!

People don't understand Mary.

When I had a faith, I interpreted Mary's virginity as God's gift to her - so she, at least, could be absolutely sure of what had happened to her. Because surely if you'd ever had sex, you'd have the occasional doubt about your son's parentage.

But I came to prefer the 'mistranslation/misogynist/late irrelevant addition to the story' explanations. I understand that the other cultures which have stories of gods dying to redeem them tend to make them sons of virgins too, indicating it's plain old misogyny.

@Babdoc
"The Romans were militaristic, chauvinist and repressive- textbook examples of toxic masculinity."

And consequently gave the religion a spine. Which given that its creator got nailed to a plank of wood and his followers initially used as Colosseum cat food is just as well.

Unless you prefer Islam.

“I love her strength and guts and her care for people, especially the poor and displaced....even when pregnant at such a young age”

Where does this come from?

I'm uncomfortable with the women of the Bible because their examples of 'goodness' etc are quite limited.

Abigail was a good provider who looked out for the food, Esther a brilliant attractive women who used her power to help her people (by being married), Ruth was a fabulous daughter in law, etc etc.

Jael only drove a tent peg through a man's head because his presence in her tent would have been misconstrued and perhaps put her in danger. These women lived and acted without their own day of patriarchy.

I like to think of the heroes of the faith from later years. Like Gladys Aylward. The film of her life has her played by Ingrid Bergman. But I believe the real Gladys was not a glamorous women but rather a short cockney women. Rejected by the China Inland Mission, she went alone and helped to put an end to foot binding, a cruel oppression of women for many years in China, ended in a single lifetime.

www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2012/19-october/comment/letters-to-the-editor/eighty-years-since-gladys-aylward-went-to-china

I am rather surprised by this thread. Given the stance of the Catholic church on contraception, abortion and its refusal to permit female priests I would have thought being a feminist, particularly a radical feminist, irreconcilable with being Catholic.

My family were nominally Catholic but had long given up on practising by the time I came along. My mother latterly became very devout , conveniently ignoring her 2 divorces and use of artificial contraception.

I don't have a faith. I've never believed in a god. I actually find it easier to understand that a person might have an innate sense of being different from their biological sex than belief in a god.

Lass I’m not Catholic, so won’t comment on that aspect. But at the risk of derailing this thread onto gender...

I don't have a faith. I've never believed in a god. I actually find it easier to understand that a person might have an innate sense of being different from their biological sex than belief in a god.

I find this really interesting. I have often been taken aback by the vehemence with which some feminists disagree with genderism. Maybe they are just vehement people, who knows. But I wonder if having spent my life surrounded by people with whom I don’t share religious beliefs has made me more chilled about fundamental disagreement.

Same with conservatism, brexitism, sexism (as in, the belief that men and women have different roles rather than misogyny), atheism. I disagree with all of those, but am happy to do so in a quietly cordial manner. Or maybe that’s just my female socialisation.

Very interesting thread, thanks Spindelina for starting it.

I very much agree with how FloralBunting and Babdoc have articulated things, especially regarding the creation narrative. Another interesting aspect of that which has been used to justify misogyny is the concept of Eve being created as 'helper' or even 'helpmeet' - it has come to be regarded that this means she is lesser than Adam and actually made in order to be in servitude to Adam.

But examining the original Hebrew form of the word is so interesting. The word used is 'ezer' which does indeed mean helper, but helper in the sense of rescuer, mainly used in the context of one who rescues in a life or death situation - one who is a warrior. And the noun form is used to describe God as our rescuer, our strength, our protector - so when this word was used to describe Eve it was with this very different narrative as a backdrop. Eve is the one who brings strength and might rather than the one who bows in servitude and submission.

Again, I do not read the genesis text literally, but do love that it is set up as an apologetic for the equal and mutual support of the sexes rather than as an 'order' of man being first and thus best. Also love the narrative of the way God says that humankind is created in 'our' image - male and female. I don't see how it could be read as God being a purely male construct - and when I think of God, I don't imagine God as male alone.

I agree that the Roman Empire then the church has much to answer for in its subversion of this story. Also agree that the evangelical right wing of the church has taken it too far and been very damaging, although of course NOEALT...

NAEALT, that should say.

NApeopleALT!

@Madhairday

Hi long time no see! Hope you are well.

'NAEALT, that should say.' ?????

Not all evangelicals are like that?

Given the power imbalance, and the age difference (with some scholars estimating her to be about 13), could Mary have given any kind of meaningful consent to the god to impregnate her?

I actually find it easier to understand that a person might have an innate sense of being different from their biological sex than belief in a god.

Other way around for me. But then my belief is in there being more than we can perceive, in the concept of deity rather than in the absolutist dictatorship of a deity. Organised religion is about history, guidance and control, not absolute truth.

Besides, that's what it is: a belief. Personal. I recognise that it is totally unfounded. There is no empirical proof of the existence of deity. Whereas there is empirical proof of the existence of sexual dimorphism and societal influences on behaviour. There is empirical proof of the effects of hormones upon bodies and brains.

Belief is personal, and not to be imposed upon others.

Misogyny is an imposition of beliefs upon others.

Ooh, got to come back to this. Great idea for a thread.

Great thread - I've been pondering this for a while.

Grew up middle-of-the-road Anglican, went bonkers evangelical at uni (to this day I'm not entirely sure how much I believed some of that stuff and how much I went along with it for the sake of belonging), now still in an evangelical Anglican church which actually has a massive range of theology represented in the congregation. Don't really describe myself as evangelical.

Was a bit of a cool-girl liberal feminist for years, which started to radicalise when I had DD and in the last few years I've come to believe that radical feminism is much more in line with Jesus' message of liberation.

I can completely understand why some people would look at the appalling history of misogyny in organised religion but my belief is that it's of human origin and the core of the gospel is profoundly liberating.

I'd recommend @godloveswomen on twitter.

This thread is great - thank you for starting it OP. Lots to mull over & consider.