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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Who knew in 2018 we would be lead by unelected tech giants?

145 replies

therealposieparker · 08/08/2018 19:28

Banned from twitter. Not sure why, I suspect it was telling the truth. I will not stop.

It will probably save time laughing at profile pictures of pretty laydeeees.

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InsaneVampire · 10/08/2018 16:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MeetTheNewAccountSameAsTheOld · 12/08/2018 10:54

Why all the people rushing to say, "I didn't report the post!".

I never made any accusations about anybody reporting the post. For all anybody here knows, maybe it was me who reported the post, notifying the mods that I was concerned I had crossed a line.

But nice try at trying to obscure the point.

The point is that not a single free speech absolutist has made a single post since the deletion objecting about the deletion, even after being made aware of the deletion. If the claims those posters on this thread have made, that free speech is absolute, then it's absolute for all and they would have protested the deletion if they were true to their claims. After all, it's not like people haven't complained about deletions on other threads. . .

But of course they haven't complained. Because the position that is claimed, that "free speech is absolute and must be upheld even if I don't like what you say," isn't really accurate, is it? It's "the people who say what I like must have absolute free speech, but the people who say things I don't like? I'm suddenly not overly concerned if they get silenced."

And again, just to head off the inevitable claim, I support Mumsnet's decision to delete my post, because I'm at least willing to live by my principles.

LangCleg · 12/08/2018 11:17

Christ on a fucking bike. Now we're supposed to register a protest every time anything gets deleted on MN? Flail, flail, flail. More flail.

ANYWAY...

... back to Red's interesting post.

In authoritarian revolutions, those who are educated are generally targetted first because they are deemed a threat to the incoming authoritarian establishment in some way.

Yes. Notice the targeting of university professors in Turkey recently.

R0wantrees · 12/08/2018 11:27

In authoritarian revolutions, those who are educated are generally targetted first because they are deemed a threat to the incoming authoritarian establishment in some way

The (ongoing) targetting of Professor Kathleen Stock has been quite extraordinary.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3301937-Sussex-Students-Union-defames-Dr-Kathleen-Stock-Title-Edited-by-MNHQ

Ereshkigal · 12/08/2018 11:31

LOL. Desperate.

Ereshkigal · 12/08/2018 11:33

The point is that not a single free speech absolutist

Who are these "free speech absolutists" of who you speak? You imply there are many. Have fun with your straw man.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 12/08/2018 11:53

Christ on a fucking bike. Now we're supposed to register a protest every time anything gets deleted on MN? Flail, flail, flail. More flail

Absolutely!!!

I dont even remember what that post was about

How can i complain about the deletion of a post that i dont remember Grin

It wasnt THAT interesting!!

Ereshkigal · 12/08/2018 12:04

I posted bits of it in my response post. It wasn't very exciting. Not sure what got it deleted. Don't care. It's hardly "silenced" Meet, given all the other posts on the same subject ad nauseam that remain.

R0wantrees · 12/08/2018 12:45

In authoritarian revolutions, those who are educated are generally targetted first because they are deemed a threat to the incoming authoritarian establishment in some way

Consequences of the fear felt by academics to speak out is raised by Kathleen Stock and Rebecca Reilly-Cooper:

twitter.com/boodleoops/status/1028598282447200256

Who knew in 2018 we would be lead by unelected tech giants?
thebewilderness · 12/08/2018 22:32

I never made any accusations about anybody reporting the post. For all anybody here knows, maybe it was me who reported the post, notifying the mods that I was concerned I had crossed a line.

FYI, had you done so the note from the mods would have said it was removed at your request, so we do indeed know.

Yawn/

DuckingGoodPJs · 12/08/2018 23:28

Tiresome troll is tiresome.

I never made any accusations about anybody reporting the post. For all anybody here knows, maybe it was me who reported the post, notifying the mods that I was concerned I had crossed a line.

Not exactly telling the truth though, the message on the post said:
Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.
So someone else (unknown) reported it, otherwise it says something like "Message deleted at poster's request". Not that many of the GC women report even the most obnoxious of posts, because we like them to stand and be refuted.

The point is that not a single free speech absolutist has made a single post since the deletion objecting about the deletion, even after being made aware of the deletion.

We are not your handmaidens buddy. We don't work for you. Take it up with MNHQ to get your post re-instated - that is the process. But likely the post was prattling on about the Nazis, again.

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2018 16:04

Authoritarian regime love bureaucracy. Why? Because its a good way to marginal and to distort reality. The best way to say there is no problem is to say there is no data to say there is a problem. In an age of tech giants this is relevant. Tech giants ARE super powered bureaucratic institutions. They decide what values are measured. Thing that are not measured are already deemed unimportant or valueless. Things - and people - that slip through the cracks just 'don't exist' or 'there is no evidence of having happened'. Thus people have power to erase others reality as a 'fiction'. Orwell was only too aware of this.

Switching from sex to gender in this context is hugely powerful and important.

If you want a working example of it happening in the UK, heres a story about the homeless in manchester and how no one knows how many people are dying on the streets.
The deaths they don't count

Its a suburb piece of investigative journalism.

At least no one is actively campaigning to shut down reports like this.

But theres a point made in there about safeguarding and vulnerable people too.

Why is this issue such a low level campaign for political parties? (I note in particular reference to how this is a male problem. No MRAs go near this one do they, with their what about the men shit).

When people are actively campaigning to silence people this is what they are advocating. Making things invisible to bureaucracy. So they can deny a problem exists. To not just turn a blind eye but to actively dehumanise by denying someone the reality of their experience because it doesn't fit with their world view or politics.

This is something both the left and right have weaponised in the past. Tech giants just make the same historical pattern even worse.

R0wantrees · 13/08/2018 16:32

Red can you check the link to article please?

LangCleg · 13/08/2018 16:35

Yes please, Red. Link's not working for me and I'd like to read.

LangCleg · 13/08/2018 16:42

Thanks, Red.

LangCleg · 13/08/2018 16:51

“If it was posh people dying in this way, it would be uproar

Well, that was as distressing a read as I thought it would be.

R0wantrees · 13/08/2018 16:58

When people are actively campaigning to silence people this is what they are advocating. Making things invisible to bureaucracy. So they can deny a problem exists. To not just turn a blind eye but to actively dehumanise by denying someone the reality of their experience because it doesn't fit with their world view or politics.

THank you for sharing this Red it is such important journalism and makes for horrifying reading.

I worked for homeless services 15+ years ago. We worked with a man (vulnerable adult) who had been sleeping in the large business bins. He was often exploited and saw it as a safe dry sanctuary. The fear was that he may have been killed as Stefan Tomkins was.
Checking these bins and highlighting the risk became part of street outreach.

The situation may escalate in Manchester as there are reports this week of a new drug, Monkey Dust, in the NW which is having devastating effects:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-45144531

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2018 17:20

I think the pattern is very concerning.

You have well meaning middle class people who come from certain backgrounds, who have no comprehension of certain things. So they build data and the politics that surrounds those politics based soley on that. Their inability - or at times - their deliberate ommission of certain things means vulnerable grounds are left particularly exposed.

Those who put too much weight on what data shows and use this as a means to argue that certain things are not happening are frankly dangerous politically.

Those things that aren't supposed to be happening - but are - are part of people's reality. The political ommision and then the use of data to erase that reality leads to people not trusting data, nor those who value data. And their politics. Why would they, if those politics are leaving them exposed?

The fact that Big Tech companies are so heavily dominated by white, middle class males - often of a certain social group and thus political agenda is deeply troubling in this context and you can see how this is affecting the politics and is marginalising the experiences of women in particular.

It also marginalises working class groups in different ways. But if those who are particularly marginalised or simply uneducated through no fault of their own, don't understand how to argue about what is missing from data and to ask questions about why its missing and be able to argue forcefully for its inclusion theres a problem.

They are then also vulnerable to the political exploitation of groups and individuals who do recognise the ommision of such data, but offer alternative explanations and politics. Thus we have 'alternative facts', conspiracy theories and 'fake news'.

Women are better placed to be more aware that there is a problem with whats going on across the board, because they have always been marginalised in this way and by beaucracy. And because many have the advantage of being educated to spot gaps in data and identify cracks in beaucracy. Academics, notably are also amongst some of the best placed people to pick apart beaucratic weaknesses and data holes / bias because its their job description to do that.

This makes them politically dangerous to the far right and a political inconvenience and nusiance to the far left.

This pattern is happening across the board with politics. It fits in remarkably well with the erosion of safeguarding frameworks and that whole ongoing narrative.

It just highlights the growing gap between rich and poor too.

Its a perfect storm brewing. Until politicians get a grip and really start recognising it, we are going to have enormous problems.

Data is only as good as those who collect that data. Their politics matter.

Yes, this particular story isn't specificially about unelected tech giants, but it does show the issue in a practical way which is relevant to this debate and we should be talking about it in the context of others too.

LangCleg · 13/08/2018 17:24

Great post, Red. Agree with all of it.

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