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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Who knew in 2018 we would be lead by unelected tech giants?

145 replies

therealposieparker · 08/08/2018 19:28

Banned from twitter. Not sure why, I suspect it was telling the truth. I will not stop.

It will probably save time laughing at profile pictures of pretty laydeeees.

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RedToothBrush · 10/08/2018 00:15

Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe. Thomas Jefferson

The current problem is that our press is currently NOT free as it should be. A lot of this is to do with technological change and ownership of the media.

Free speech is different to freedom of the media in that people should be free to say things as they want but the level of responsibility is different - but the point is that they remain responsible for it. You can be sued for defamation for example, if what you say is not true.

If what is said is printed it has a different power - this is where libel in particular comes in. If something is written, it can be distributed and whoever publishes it has a certain influence and power over an above that of the individual. There was also (until the advent of social media) gatekeeping where there was a time lag between when something was written and when it was published. Thus intent is different. Slander being spoken is much more off the cuff and doesn't (necessarily) involve anyone else's involvement in the same way. Its now more complex because social media means everything is instantaneous and this has removed this type of gatekeeping making it much easier to defame someone to a much wider audience.

So when we talk about free speech, there is a difference to what it was in the past. You could have a conversation in the pub and be free to say what you want and it wouldn't really have any decernable effect. Now if you have that same conversation not in the pub but on social media, millions have the potential to read it and the consequences are markedly different.

Where the problem comes, is therefore with power being disproportionate to what accountability there now is. Its much easier to defame, slander and libel. And much harder to hold people to account either socially or via the law. Thats why were are in a 'wild west' stage.

I believe in free speech, but that still means there should be accountability for what you say. Thus if you are abusive to someone thats not ok and you should have consequences. The problem is to do with what those consequences are. In the past there would be social pressure, but controversy is popular so it stead of being shunned people are actively rewarded for poor behaviour.

That leaves social media companies to take responsibility. Except there is no accountability nor transparency over what the social media companies are doing and there is every suggestion that they are ill equiped to do it consistantly and fairly. Social media companies are very often banning what they feel based on market decisions about whether that makes them more popular - and thus has more market value - rather than because its the right thing to do. And this has a massive effect on freedom.

That leads on to law which is far behind the technology with politicians years behind the curve and with no idea of the nature of the problem. Its currently totally useless in the face of what he needs to deal with.

The press is desparately trying to compete against social media, so is not free to report in the way it used to as its being pressured to be as responsive as social media. Rather than cutting out the niche its supposed to inhabit, which seeks out accurancy it is turning to less accurate and more extreme sensationalism.

Social media companies are not about freedom of speech. They are about shaping the concept of freedom of speech for their profit.

If they were really about freedom of speech then there wouldn't be problems with bots and there wouldn't be algorythyms which amplify certain users over other users - so certain 'popular' or 'controversial' tweets were given greater weight. Tweets would all be exactly the same 'weight' in cyberspace and there would be no ability to retweet. Social media's role in distributing ideas and words is similar to why it became necessary for liable laws to be introduced - except what we currently have doesn't really cover the scale of the problem because there is no way of enforcing what laws there are.

Technically speaking, I'm pretty damn such that Alex Jones could be sued for defamation of character for suggesting that the anyone who was witness to Sandyhook is a liar. If its in writing on his site, then libel would also apply. But the damage has already been done because enforcement after the fact only reinforces the idea that he is a victim of a conspiracy if you were to go ahead and do so. But yes, thats a good reason for Twitter to deplatform - because an illegal activity has taken place. Thats not about freedom of speech. And thats why no one, even if they are right wing nutters, should be petitioning anyone to host the likes of Alex Jones.

And its the truth and facts bit that really matters. If you want to say negative stuff about someone, you need to hold some accountability for it. If it goes beyond an opinion of saying 'well i just don't like them', then you really have to have some substance behind it. The more power you have, the more you need to be able to demonstrate that your opinon holds merit.

Accountability and transparency is the crux of free speech. Media companies are supposed to part of that process and are supposed to expose it when thats not happening. The problem is that in the desparate chase for profit they are taking short cuts and weakening the process.

Which is why we don't have the free speech we should.

Free speech is not about being free to be a tosser without consequence. The difference is subtle but important. Freedom of speech means you are free from the state restricting what you can say; the point is that you have to also be able to justify and be responsible in what you say too. Free speech needs respect for the truth to be something that society as a whole values. Free speech needs respect for other people to be something that society as a whole upholds.

Free speech also is about the ability of others to offer a counter argument - if someone has been intimidated by another voicing their opinion that crushes their freedom of speech. This is why respect is so essential to the concept of free speech.

When people are not safe to state the truth or don't feel safe to state their opinion you know you no longer have free speech. Safe is the key word here.

The real problem in 2018 is the system that supports the right to free speech has effectively completely collasped.

I support the principle of free speech in this sense and in this context. Not in any bullshit simplistic 'you can say whatever the fuck you like' type definition of what freedom of speech is.

To go a bit further, I'll use this as an example.

When Boris Johnson talks about people looking like letterboxes, thats not respectful. Boris Johnson saying that burkas are an issue if women are forced to wear them or because it restricts important social interacts through facial expression would be an entirely different kettle of fish. Noting that Boris Johnson holds more power than others, so should be held to higher standards than others because of the impact it has. He is free to discuss the subject of burkas, but the way he does it is important and he is accountable for it. Being disrespectful and bordering on offensive in his manner, has potential consequences for what others think is acceptable to say and do to women who wear burkas. This is why he should be held to account not for what he was talking about, but the manner in which he did it.

The guy down the pub talking about burkas and letterboxes with his mates might not be pleasant and I don't like it. But its not being broadcast to millions of people at 6 o'clock when people are tuning in whilst eating their dinner. Nor is it directly harming a particular individual who is present (provided there is no one wearing a burka in earshot).

The guy shouting at a woman in the street about her looking like a letterbox, isn't demonstrating his right to free speech - he's trying to intimidate and abuse a woman. The intent is not to start a debate, not to joke nor to make any other point - its abuse and to make her feel unsafe.

Yes it matters. Because it comes back to the safety of others and the responsibility you take for your actions. Freedom of speech is a concept which interacts with other people's freedom. Its not something you 'own' and isn't separate from other people.

Ereshkigal · 10/08/2018 00:23

Great post, Red.

RedToothBrush · 10/08/2018 00:29

I should add that the principle of freedom of speech being allowed, is a counter to abuses of power which might endanger the safety and well being of a person.

When someone invokes freedom if speech as a defence for saying something which is controversial, always consider this and where the abuse of power really lies. Its not always where you are being directed towards...

Pythagonal · 10/08/2018 01:05

I don't know (will bow to Rufus's superior knowledge) but MN won't accept it as a name change for me. 😫

Ereshkigal · 10/08/2018 01:08

Perhaps that was Meetthenewaccountsameastheold's old account name?

Pythagonal · 10/08/2018 01:09

Its now more complex because social media means everything is instantaneous and this has removed this type of gatekeeping making it much easier to defame someone to a much wider audience.

A wise person once told me 'never type anything into a computer that you wouldn't want read out by a judge in a court of law in front of your grandmother'. The advice has stood the test of time,

therealposieparker · 10/08/2018 08:22

These modern day cis feminist socialists on their child mined mineral smart phones made in factories with suicide nets. Proper socialism in action there.

Have a Biscuit

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therealposieparker · 10/08/2018 08:29

Why is the progressive left so fearful of free speech?

I don't really understand, expect that all their critics seemed to have known this forever, the tropes are all true. The mob mentality, I see Corbynite types as the same as EDL types. They are equally as intolerant, except the left seem to get morality points. Where is the condemnation of Bromentum bullying on the left? And Antifa?

I feel so aggrieved that I was so wrong about my allegiances and now there's no political home for people who care for public services, know what a woman is and uphold the principle of free speech.

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RedToothBrush · 10/08/2018 08:35

Why is the progressive left so fearful of free speech?

'Progressive left' is another bullshit term.

Authoritarianism left.

MeetTheNewAccountSameAsTheOld · 10/08/2018 10:41

"Technically speaking, I'm pretty damn such that Alex Jones could be sued for defamation of character for suggesting that the anyone who was witness to Sandyhook is a liar. If its in writing on his site, then libel would also apply. But the damage has already been done because enforcement after the fact only reinforces the idea that he is a victim of a conspiracy if you were to go ahead and do so. But yes, thats a good reason for Twitter to deplatform - because an illegal activity has taken place. Thats not about freedom of speech. And thats why no one, even if they are right wing nutters, should be petitioning anyone to host the likes of Alex Jones[. . .]

[. . .]Free speech is not about being free to be a tosser without consequence. The difference is subtle but important. Freedom of speech means you are free from the state restricting what you can say; the point is that you have to also be able to justify and be responsible in what you say too. Free speech needs respect for the truth to be something that society as a whole values. Free speech needs respect for other people to be something that society as a whole upholds."

Bingo.

What I said, but a lot politer.

But then, I was also hoping for something else to happen. I was hoping to tip one of my posts into deletion territory, just to make a point.

See, my post was deleted, and with good reason, and I support that decision.

But the free speech absolutists on this thread?

The ones claiming to uphold the right of me to say something no matter how much it may offend them?

Aren't they suspiciously quiet about the deletion?

As if it's freeze peach for some, but not for the people they don't actually like.

Rather makes my point about hypocrisy, doesn't it?

R0wantrees · 10/08/2018 10:56

do like 'freeze peach' Meet !

I was just about to search this to try to understand what you were saying (having like many others discovered tatterdermalion yesterday h/t). Realised just in time you must be using speech recognition software. Grin

I also like a lot of Einstein quotations.

Who knew in 2018 we would be lead by unelected tech giants?
LangCleg · 10/08/2018 10:59

The only post I've reported in the last couple of months was one that directly called a prominent person a paedophile.

And I'd bet that if you asked the mods to provide a comparison of the volume of reports from one "side" or the other hereabouts, it would not say what some people would like it to show or are insinuating it would show.

Jus' sayin'.

Ereshkigal · 10/08/2018 11:07

Aren't they suspiciously quiet about the deletion?

Didn't notice, soz. You're not that important or interesting.

R0wantrees · 10/08/2018 11:08

But then, I was also hoping for something else to happen. I was hoping to tip one of my posts into deletion territory, just to make a point.

See, my post was deleted, and with good reason, and I support that decision.

So to clarify, you are gaming the MN complaints process?

A post is only deleted if its reported and the issues given fit with the guidelines and ethos of MN and this particular board.

MN have repeatedly said how much extra work has been generated by moderating this board.

Who knows who reported your post & on what grounds MeetTheNewAccountSameAsTheOld ?

An important part of the ethos of Muumsnet is civility and I have to comment that what you've described doing may well be seen as "not cricket" .

FloralBunting · 10/08/2018 11:16

I didn't report you, mate. Tbh, I think I probably only skim read the wall of text you posted anyway. Every free speech advocate here has acknowledged there are boundaries to the exercise of free speech.

We've all talked about inconsistent application of restrictions, and we've also asked you to apply your high moral standards to the innumerable death threats and incitement posted freely by your fellow TRAs. And answer came there none.

Ereshkigal · 10/08/2018 11:30

We've all talked about inconsistent application of restrictions, and we've also asked you to apply your high moral standards to the innumerable death threats and incitement posted freely by your fellow TRAs. And answer came there none.

Quite.

FermatsTheorem · 10/08/2018 11:34

I didn't report that post either.

I prefer obnoxious views to be left to stand, for everyone to read, with people free to offer rebuttals of the obnoxious views.

(The only exception I make to this is targeted harrassment of named induviduals, and the repeatedly banned creep who keeps re-regging on prostitution threads who stalks women on the site who've ever been involved with prostitution.)

Ereshkigal · 10/08/2018 11:37

I prefer obnoxious views to be left to stand, for everyone to read, with people free to offer rebuttals of the obnoxious views.

Me too. I generally don't think censorship is the answer. These opinions need to be dragged into the light and publicly challenged. That goes for all concerning views.

It's not GC women who hashtag #nodebate, is it?

LangCleg · 10/08/2018 11:57

I prefer obnoxious views to be left to stand, for everyone to read

Also me.

therealposieparker · 10/08/2018 11:58

Meet.... you can thank your special friends for deletions, see when the MRAs and TRAs start focussing on women's speech and opinions places like MN have to be really really careful and monitor posts much more closely.

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LangCleg · 10/08/2018 11:59

The idea that one could be hoist with one's own petard is a good one. A good bit of self reflection also generally helps one work out whose petard is getting the hoisting, I find.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 10/08/2018 12:13

No reporting here either

Posts quite often aren't reported by people actually on the thread

Or even members of mumsnet if that twitter report thing is still going...

therealposieparker · 10/08/2018 12:16

Red... "progressive left" I use as a sarcastic pejorative.

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TheCountryGirl · 10/08/2018 12:38

You're barking up the wrong tree, Meet. The GC women in this board tend not to report - I have never once reported, even personal attacks against myself. We want the lunacy to be seen by everyone, especially the lurkers.

Look closer to home.

InsaneVampire · 10/08/2018 14:34

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