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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Could we reclaim "cis"?

135 replies

rocketpocket · 01/08/2018 15:52

I am mainly just thinking out loud here and happy to be told to stop being ridiculous.

I know a lot of the women on here are deeply unhappy with the cis label but I was wondering if it's something we could actually work with.

Cis basically just means a person that identifies as the sex/gender that they were assigned at birth, right?

Wouldn't it be better if we reclaimed the label and had ciswomen only shortlists or ciswomen only refuges or ciswomen only sporting categories?

Perhaps transwomen can be women but they can never be ciswomen.

I think I understand the anger at the definition of "woman" being changed and all the rest. I suppose this is an "if you can't beat them, join them" solution. Is it terrible?

OP posts:
NothingOnTellyAgain · 01/08/2018 16:20

No doesn't work at all.

For it to work, all women and girls in the world of the cunty type, who are not "trans" would have to
A. Agree that internal gender ID, detached from both biology and sex stereotypes, is a "thing" that
B. They have and
C. They firmly "identify" as

Problems.

  1. The existence of internal gender ID as a standard thing that the vast majority of people have is far from decided /agreed
  2. Most women and girls - from multiple MN threads - do not have such a feeling and so are not "cis"
  3. What of cunty babies and young children - too young to say - they have no collective/ general word?
  4. Still no word to speak of all cunty people ( inc non binary, transmen etc) and the specific issues they face

The whole "not allowed to have any words to refer to cunty people" is a gift for misogynists.

terryleather · 01/08/2018 16:20

The "identify as" claim means absolutely nothing to me - as it would be like re-defining the word "lawyer" to "anyone who identifies as a lawyer." Such a definition won't exactly help me choose who should represent me in court.

I've been thinking for a while now that as soon as someone says they identity as XYZ you can pretty much guarantee they absolutely are not XYZ...otherwise you simply are XYZ, no need for identifying.

abbsisspartacus · 01/08/2018 16:22

That doesn't work for me I've never been cis always been a woman my sex was observed at birth as female no cis on my birth certificate

MrsTerryPratchett · 01/08/2018 16:24

Cis basically just means a person that identifies as the sex/gender that they were assigned at birth, right?

That's the problem. I don't. I know my sex is female. I reject the bullshit gender nonsense and see it as harmful.

I tried to explain this to a woke type at work. She said, "but you're cis, right". I said, and this is important, "I perform as much female gender stuff as I need to to get by fairly frictionlessly in society. That makes you think I'm 'cis'."

But I reject the idea that this stuff is innate. How are skirts, or make-up, or liking pink innate? It's utter bullshit. Bullshit that isn't even consistent over time or geography. Otherwise why aren't men in London asking to break their toes and bind their feet, or lengthen their necks, or tattoo their chins, or be married off to 50 year old men at 14? Because that is the deeply unpleasant stuff that is female gendered.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 01/08/2018 16:24

"Wouldn't it be better if we reclaimed the label and had ciswomen only shortlists or ciswomen only refuges or ciswomen only sporting categories?"

Most people, following gender definitions, are "non binary" or "agender". From what I've seen on here anyway.

Therefore most women (old style cunty women) would not be allowed in the things you mention.

Undercoverswede · 01/08/2018 16:27

No, and not necessarily for the obvious reasons. Every authoritarian movement currently in play seeks to impose constricting definitions and 'boundedness' on those it seeks to exercise control over - while retaining the 'power' to escape criminal and financial law, national boundaries, and legal accountability for themselves.

Exhibits A, B, and C: Trumpism - check (immigrants/Mexicans/women's bodies vs. transnational collusion and dodgy money); the Brexiteer elite (JRM et al.) - check (British people vs. the whole tax haven/shell company money laundering/offshore finances thing, a.k.a. dodgy money); trans activism - check (reinforcing traditional gender roles and imposing 'cis' as a compliance marker vs. gender/identity fluidity enshrined in law).

I'm not suggesting that they are related. But the powerplay uses the same script in all three examples.

We should insist on the right to define ourselves, just like PoC did to combat the 'post-racial' "I don't see colour" BS that US republicans were all about some years ago. The statistics showing that black people in the US (at least) are disadvantages aren't boosted by a bunch of white dudes calling themselves post-racial. It took a while to establish this, but only the most naive would dispute it now.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 01/08/2018 16:28

I do wonder if having a "strongly held internal sense of gender ID" ( as per stonewall) is something men feel more than women?

Most (not all, but most) are devoid of this feeling and find the whole thing rather hard to get to grips with as a result.

Like me and spirituality. I get that some people are spiritual, feel there is "something more" and some follow their own faiths or organised religion as a result. For me though, it's theoretical, I have no idea what that feeling is like, just don't have it, never have had.

Ariclock · 01/08/2018 16:28

No, just no.

DonkeySkin · 01/08/2018 16:28

No. Fuck's sake no.

If women were to bow down and accept the label "ciswomen", then there will be an aggressive campaign for penis people to also be given the label "ciswomen".

Absolutely.

The thing is, this whole fight isn't about the word 'woman' as such. It's about men asserting their right to define female reality, making sure that we have no words to describe ourselves as a distinct group and therefore ensuring we can never draw any boundaries against them.

Men only want the word 'woman' because it refers to adult human females. If we started using another word for ourselves, whether it be 'ciswomen' or 'snarfleblarts' , that would be the word they would want. And they would find ciswomen-only and snarfleblart-only spaces and shortlists as unacceptable as women-only spaces and shortlists.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 01/08/2018 16:29

Most women are devoid of this feeling...

Phone ate an important word!

RuddyTrees · 01/08/2018 16:30

I've been a girl, then a woman for the past forty-odd years. In all that time, me, my foster parents and anyone who knows me would say (if they gave a shit) that I do not conform to the typical gender traits of 'being' a girl or woman. That said, I am a woman, not a CIS woman. I can't RECLAIM something that was NEVER mine to begin with. Fuck that. It's this kind of stuff that makes so many people who had their sex at birth OBSERVED as FEMALE get the arse.

Abandoned at birth - 'cause I was a girl, sexually assaulted at 13 - 'cause I was a girl, vaginally raped at 18 - 'cause I was a female, underpaid against males in my high-pressure former career - 'cause I am a female, series of miscarriages then emergency (life-saving) hysterectomy at 40 - 'cause I am female... Weary and old though it has made me, I will call myself a WOMAN not accept a watered-down, insincere, handmaiden version of woman. Nah.

pearlkent · 01/08/2018 16:30

puppiesnotpatriarchy what does this even mean?:

if a man's not a trans then I'd personally call him a "cis man" which is objectively one of the most boring creatures on God's green earth

And how is it relevant?

NothingOnTellyAgain · 01/08/2018 16:31

Agree with donkey skin.

Note that
First woman went, and girl.
Now they are after female.

The entire point is that there are no collective words for the cunty half of the population.

LangCleg · 01/08/2018 16:32

If we're going to reclaim anything, it should be woman.

Plus all the other words associated with our sex that have been appropriated.

puppiesnotpatriarchy · 01/08/2018 16:33

@pearlkent sorry I don't really know how to use this site yet!

I was replying to this:

If we’re going to be called ciswomen, are men going to be known as cismen ? Only seems fair.

Which the answer to is yes, obviously.

TransplantsArePlants · 01/08/2018 16:33

You used cis and the nonsense 'assigned at birth'

Sorry, that is a No from me

Gncq · 01/08/2018 16:37

I would disagree with any "ciswoman" only shortlist or space because I would want non-binary or gender-non-conforming women, and women who identify as men to be included as all of these people are also women, and equally women.

MsMcWoodle · 01/08/2018 16:39

Over my dead body.

pearlkent · 01/08/2018 16:42

puppiesnotpatriarchy yes I get the bit about it being fair that the (banned) word be applied to both woman and man, but I don't get the relevance of a "cis man" which is objectively one of the most boring creatures on God's green earth
Why did you feel the need to say that "a c*s man is "one of the most boring creatures on God's green earth?"
Are you trying to make some sort of point about men in general (as if trying to be a "proper" feminist by criticising men)? Just curious.

RuddyTrees · 01/08/2018 16:43

I tell you what I WOULD like to reclaim: the words, phrases and experiences that have been taken or diluted to be so right-on and PC as to be fucking meaningless. I mean, I'll start with Jess Bradley "...her erect genitals..." WTF? Erect cock. Hard penis. Call it what it is. Also, whilst I'm in baggage reclaim, I'd quite like to have the words MENSTRUATION, FEMININE HYGIENE, BREASTFEEDING, PERIODS and LESBIAN back and never, ever have to read 'ladydick' ever again.

TransplantsArePlants · 01/08/2018 16:45

pearl

Yes, that struck me too. People are individuals. I've got 3 fascinating men here in this house with me. All very different.

IAmInsignificunt · 01/08/2018 16:46

Nope.
Well actually yes...but only if I can be as liberal with the prefix “pseudo”. After all, it is Greek!

pearlkent · 01/08/2018 16:51

TransplantsArePlants yes I feel it was a very revealing comment.
And by implication does puppies also think that (so-called) c*s women are also "the most boring crearures on God's green earth"?
Unlike those brave and stunning trans women.

Wherismymind · 01/08/2018 16:53

I'm not a cis woman because I don't identify as the gender I was assigned at birth. I am the gender I was at birth. I don't identify with anything.

AccioWine · 01/08/2018 16:54

No thank you, for all the reasons above.

It will never be enough, whatever we "reclaim", there will be a further push to claim that. And so on, and so on, until we have no words left to define ourselves. We are already close to that - why make it easier?