Social contagion, ROGD etc

[NoSquirrels]

Was reading the thread last night and Twitter posts where ROGD was being dismissed as a phenomenon, or cited as “the latest issue” evil gender critical rad fems are trying to popularise.

It struck me - how can ROGD as a phenomenon, but more widely than that the general principle of social contagion for things like anorexia and suicide (which are well-documented) be so quickly dismissed whilst MN’s “hotbed of dangerous radicalism” is simultaneously such a threat because it’s responsible for turning ordinary people (women) against trans people and “inciting hatred” and transphobia.

If people cannot be influenced by other people, particularly online, why is this conversational space such a threat? For the most part adult women with their own life experiences are being talked to and about here, so if social contagion doesn’t exist, we’re no longer a threat to the trans movement presumably? Because whatever we say isn’t going to influence others.

Or is it that - to borrow the argument that identity is innate and it just needs a light shining on it and more visibility for those who were “always female/male/NB/trans” to feel comfortable to speak up - that women who are adult females are innately gender critical and just need a light shining on certain issues to realise it?

Social behaviour always includes an element of social contagion. The only people who aren't affected by it are sociopaths.

Whether its labelled positive or negative depends on how harmful it is, or on your agenda.

#Translogic. That's your answer.

The same logic that says men's toilets are dangerous, because of the men in them, but when those men come in the ladies, they're not.

Two men having sex are gay, until one says they're a woman, at which point it becomes heterosexual sex, unless the other party says so too, at which point it's lesbian sex.

Adults want the transition process demedicalised for them, whilst campaigning for the opposite for kids.

We can't possibly know what it's like to be trans, so shouldn't have an opinion, but middle-aged men can have an opinion on what it's like to be a woman.

Its pointless trying to make sense of it.

Absolutely, Upstart. I just can’t get through the double-think that on one hand “media and wider understanding and visibility of trans issues” can be apparently responsible for a massive upswing in reported statistics (autism argument) whilst simultaneously the effect of “media” on creating “a phenomenon” can be so easily dismissed as propaganda.

Either there’s a correlation or there isn’t.

Interesting article about the process of social contagion with regards bulimia nervosa. Its worth reading in full:
'The Strange, Contagious History of Bulimia'
By
Lee Daniel Kravetz

"The theory of media’s culpability in the spread of social contagions is not a new one. Psychologists studying the developmental psychopathology of eating disorders have led dozens of controlled experiments finding a near-perfect link between mass media and eating disorder symptoms. The question in my mind now isn’t whether media have a part to play in replicating social contagions; if we were able to purge ourselves of certain conduits of influence like media itself, we might have an easier time stopping transmission. Rather, I question just how big a part media actually play in spreading them."
www.thecut.com/article/how-bulimia-became-a-medical-diagnosis.html

Kravetz is the author of 'Strange Contagion: Inside the Surprising Science of Infectious Behaviors and Viral Emotions and What They Tell Us About Ourselves'

Thanks Rowan that is indeed a fascinating read. Very balanced.

Its pointless trying to make sense of it.
Datun. You’re right, I know. I wish I was half as certain about half as many things as trans activists and allies seem to be. It’s the surety and lack of questioning dressed up as logic and critical thinking that is so baffling to me.

NoSquirrels I think the book could be interesting.

The same logic that says men's toilets are dangerous, because of the men in them, but when those men come in the ladies, they're not.

Two men having sex are gay, until one says they're a woman, at which point it becomes heterosexual sex, unless the other party says so too, at which point it's lesbian sex.

These two statements encapsulate brilliantly the idiocy of TRA arguments.

The thing i like about this site is when i look at something and think 'that makes no sense' but im unable to verbalise it then i just think its me

And then someone else it so clearly!!

Awesome

at which point it's lesbian sex

Pink News featuring Lily Madigan:

"The first time I realised I was a lesbian | First Times"

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=UnlL3ctytXc

"My gayness doesn't like being overshadowed by my transness"

"My gayness doesn't like being overshadowed by my transness"

More lack of logic. There would be No gayness if it wasn't for the transness.

Their lesbianism is entirely conditional on their transgenderism. If they weren't trans they wouldn't be lesbian.

It's all so chicken and egg, isn't it?

Rowan
These extracts from the linked article say it all for me:

After just three years of exposure to American television shows, 11 percent of Fiji’s adolescent girls admitted to Becker that they had purged their food at least once to lose weight. In that time, the risk of developing an eating disorder jumped from 13 percent to 29 percent. More than 80 percent revealed that television influenced them or their friends to be more conscious about body shape or weight. By 2007, 45 percent of girls from the main island reported purging their food.
Becker also found that the effect of media exposure went beyond eating disorders. She recorded an increase in personal ambition based on certain characters that viewers watched on television. In one of her studies, 80 percent of the girls said they planned to eschew traditional agrarian jobs for professional careers, specifically those that only wanted thin women. The republic also experienced a rise in the social contagion of emotional strain among teenage girls. Fiji’s society was changing quickly, and psychological problems accompanied these massive cultural shifts as media transmissions carried along even more social contagions
....

She speaks with me about her earliest experiences with compulsive overeating and purging, as well as finally encountering a successful treatment. Her personal story tracks remarkably well with the cultural fulcrum toward perfect models, the Playboy centerfolds, beauty pageant contestants, and television actresses, as well as the rise of diet products in the seventies and eighties that perpetuated the desire and means to achieve these looks. Not only did the media come to glorify a slender ideal, they also emphasized its importance, and the importance of appearances in general that went into shaping identity, gender roles, values, and beliefs. To treat this perfect storm of catchable body image standards, openness to restrictive eating behaviors, and feelings of despair, pugilists of this pandemic would, in due course, introduce prosocial media campaigns to reinforce healthy body weight, antidepressants, and evidence-based psychotherapies.

The role of media and in particular, newspapers, TV and social media, (in other words images of women) are instrumental in spreading the fake news about how women should be - unsuspecting minds are groomed by malign forces. Creating insecurity makes people buy more products. Plus the manufactured sexualisation of girls and women can be used as a cover for deviancies - like sex offenders, porn and traffickers

The same processes of mirroring and unconscious competition that allow people to encode dangerous thoughts, behaviors, and feelings from others might just be the very same that spread beneficial social contagions.

This latter one interests me greatly - I call it psychic projection - and it is a thing - but demands a post of its own

Thx for the link :)

#Translogic. That's your answer.

The same logic that says men's toilets are dangerous, because of the men in them, but when those men come in the ladies, they're not.

Two men having sex are gay, until one says they're a woman, at which point it becomes heterosexual sex, unless the other party says so too, at which point it's lesbian sex.

Adults want the transition process demedicalised for them, whilst campaigning for the opposite for kids.

We can't possibly know what it's like to be trans, so shouldn't have an opinion, but middle-aged men can have an opinion on what it's like to be a woman.

Its pointless trying to make sense of it.

YY - such a brilliant summation - should be a sticky on this board!!

Yes, unless your are trans you can't really understand what it's like. There's nothing sinister about it, it's just the way they were born.

There's nothing sinister about it, it's just the way they were born.

'How to tell if babies are transgender?'

Sorry, but what's sinister about that? It seems to me they are discussing how very young children indicate their feelings. How do you interpret that?

Unless you’re female, you can’t know what it’s like to be female. You can ask others, guess, read about it, but you can’t know.

ButterflyT
I didn't comment, I linked to what I thought may be a source relevent to your (quoted) comment.

ButterflyT

Yes, unless your are trans you can't really understand what it's like. There's nothing sinister about it, it's just the way they were born.

I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm showing up the hypocrisy where you can hold that opinion and in exactly the breath claim that when it comes to men, they know what it's like to be a woman.

I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm showing up the hypocrisy where you can hold that opinion and in exactly the breath claim that when it comes to men, they know what it's like to be a woman.

Indeed.

I know that trans men have an innate sense that they are male and trans women have an innate sense that they are female. This is a natural part of the rich diversity of nature, does it make them less male or female?

Human beings can't change sex.

We are not talking about this so please don't derail the thread. It's endless hereabouts and insulting to the OPs, who have a particular topic they would like to discuss. It's just rude.

If people cannot be influenced by other people, particularly online, why is this conversational space such a threat?

I think women talking without male supervision is perceived as a threat by misogynists everywhere. We must be controlled. It really is as simple as that.

I personally think it's a massive own goal to drive women underground. It just makes us more determined and more likely to be active IRL, rather than simply sounding off on the internet.