Social contagion, ROGD etc

[NoSquirrels]

Was reading the thread last night and Twitter posts where ROGD was being dismissed as a phenomenon, or cited as “the latest issue” evil gender critical rad fems are trying to popularise.

It struck me - how can ROGD as a phenomenon, but more widely than that the general principle of social contagion for things like anorexia and suicide (which are well-documented) be so quickly dismissed whilst MN’s “hotbed of dangerous radicalism” is simultaneously such a threat because it’s responsible for turning ordinary people (women) against trans people and “inciting hatred” and transphobia.

If people cannot be influenced by other people, particularly online, why is this conversational space such a threat? For the most part adult women with their own life experiences are being talked to and about here, so if social contagion doesn’t exist, we’re no longer a threat to the trans movement presumably? Because whatever we say isn’t going to influence others.

Or is it that - to borrow the argument that identity is innate and it just needs a light shining on it and more visibility for those who were “always female/male/NB/trans” to feel comfortable to speak up - that women who are adult females are innately gender critical and just need a light shining on certain issues to realise it?

I'm not trying to derail anything. The OP opined that perhaps being trans is innate, so I was commenting on that. I also don't think that women in general are gender critical, the vast majority that I know are quite comfortable with trans people

ROGD is a made up word... Everyone should read "Understanding Trans Health" by Ruth Pearce, it discusses how transness is simultaneously a diagnosis and a social movement, which explains how it can be on the rise without being a "contagion" or made up by confused children.

I'm also quite disgusted that there are people trying to claim autistic kids can't think for themselves.

An interesting read:

lilymaynard.wordpress.com/2018/07/28/rogd-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria/

The OP opined that perhaps being trans is innate

The OP did nothing of the sort. The OP's entire post was about internal contradictions in activist arguments. She used innate identity to assert the equal right for GC women to have their views validated by everyone. You see? Contradiction.

Do you have anything to say about contradictions in activist arguments?

ROGD is a made up word

ROGD isn't a word. It's an acronym. Presumably, you think gender dysphoria is real? If so, why shouldn't it have a rapid onset? And if it does, why wouldn't the differential reflect that?

And again: the OP isn't about whether ROGD is or isn't real. The OP is about contradictions in activist arguments about it.

Do you have anything to say about contradictions in activist arguments?

Yes, I do find it difficult to understand the contradiction between loving your children unconditionally but then using a fabricated notion labelled ROGD as a weapon against those children. I cannot understand why letting a child express themselves is such a problem.

I'm also quite disgusted that there are people trying to claim autistic kids can't think for themselves

Who's done that then?

Yes, my OP was to express puzzlement not that some people feel innately one way or the other about their gender - happy for anyone to feel whatever they like - but that there is a BIG pushback against MN FWR "radicalising" women by TRAs who think it's bigoted and hate speech to discuss biology etc and want it shut down whilst denying that social media can be an influence...

it discusses how transness is simultaneously a diagnosis and a social movement,

A social movement that results in permanent infertility, lack of sex life and cutting off healthy body parts?

using a fabricated notion labelled ROGD as a weapon against those children

My thread isn't about unconditional love of children, or whether "rapid onset" is a term that should be used about gender dysphoria.

Well, another one thinking safeguarding minors should bite the dust. JFC.

I cannot understand why letting a child express themselves is such a problem.

Don't be silly. Feminists, indeed most parents are happy for children to express themselves. It doesn't mean they are the opposite sex

They are intentionally maliciously inducing mental illness in children and the consequences will be horrific in every way for everyone concerned.

Allowing children to socially transition, as in allowing them to choose what they wear and what name and pronouns they use, is harmless. I did see on the ROGD thread that some people recommended cutting children off from their friends to prevent the "trans epidemic" spreading as a result of their belief that ROGD was real. Do you really think that's the most appropriate way to treat your own child?

Sudden onset or rapid onset if you prefer is is an important red flag whether in medicine or social interactions.
TRAs arguing against intervention when a child is clearly in danger, whether from joining a gang, a cult, or obsessing over cutting and other methods of self harm, is a clear indication that their interest is in promoting transenderism and not the welfare of the children.

Allowing children to socially transition, as in allowing them to choose what they wear and what name and pronouns they use, is harmless

What on earth are you talking about? Gender dysphoria is a medical condition.

It's not game.

I know that trans men have an innate sense that they are male and trans women have an innate sense that they are female. This is a natural part of the rich diversity of nature, does it make them less male or female?

Yes. Trans men are less male than men. Trans women are less female than women. Unarguable, really.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but trans groups are actually trying to improve the lives of trans children and young people. If you looked at the figures from surveys of trans people, you would find that they struggle hugely because of negative reactions both within their family, at school or in general society. I've never met a trans person who would recommend being trans to anyone. As I have said, it is innate, they are born trans and all they can do is choose how they deal with that.

If children are displaying symptoms of a condition that means they are repelled by their own body, that needs investigation.

It's certainly not 'harmless'.

And this push to pretend it's just another form of self expression is deceitful.

I've never met a trans person who would recommend being trans to anyone

You just said it's harmless and a social movement.

Trans logic.

Be consistent

It's not a push to pretend anything, it's about listening to and having respect for your child's feelings and yes, it should be investigated by professionals who have experience in that field.
Anyway, must go and cook tea for my little cherubs.

ButterflyT, loving my child unconditionally does not mean smiling and nodding along to every harmful and silly thing they do. If strangers on the internet are telling them that their short hair, preference for the clothes section marked 'boys', love of basketball and detestation of their newly growing breasts means they are in fact a boy, then better believe I am cutting off their internet access the same way I would if any stranger was telling my child lies.

You can attempt to shame parents into adopting this passive, coddling approach to raising kids all you want (apparently it's fine by MNHQ) but be aware that some of us have ovaries of solid rock and are going to push back against it and support any and all other parents you pressure, too.

ButterflyT

In order for your contradictory assertions to make sense, you will have to decide whether or not transgenderism is a social movement or medical condition.

Welcome to Mumsnet ButterflyT. Glad you were able to find this board to put us right about parenting.

Not sure how old your "little cherubs" are but parents who've had to face an intransigent 14 year old who's determined to meet up with a 30 year old or who is getting drunk or is self harming or who thinks that it would be great to go and fight with ISIS or who has an eating disorder or who has ROGD, know that in addition to listening to and having respect for a child's feelings, parenting is a lot more challenging and nuanced than your simplistic suggestion. Something that the women on this board know and appreciate.

Allowing children to socially transition, as in allowing them to choose what they wear and what name and pronouns they use, is harmless

Harmless? Says who?

You can live a child unconditionally and have them know it, bask in the security of your love, whilst still holding back from pronouns, names and ‘social transition’ at a vulnerable age. You can very much leave the door open for exploration of self, identity, place in society and so on without affirming everything a child believes to be true.

Children are legal minors for good reason. We accept they do not have the wisdom and maturity to make binding decisions on important matters.

Puberty is troubling for pretty much anyone, regardless of sex or gender. It’s the quintessential time for exploring identity and pushing boundaries and testing unconditional love. Some people may innately be ‘trans’. Most will not be.

Social influence and peer pressure is recognised and accepted as a force that acts strongly on teens. In my strongly held opinion, it’s completely irresponsible to pretend anything other than ‘watch and wait’ is appropriate for the vast vast majority of gender-questioning children and teens.

TRAs complain gen crit feminists are saying ‘every trans person is a rapist’. That’s a misrepresentation. Surely you’re not saying EVERY questioning child is trans?

I also don't think that women in general are gender critical, the vast majority that I know are quite comfortable with trans people

They're "quite comfortable" with the ones they think are transsexual.

They're scared as fuck of the ones with 'die cis scum' tattooed on their arms and the ones who say 'suck my lady dick'.