Ending this madness but 'saving face'

[pombear]

I'm not good at starting threads so forgive me for the following clunkiness:

Given that the discussion is growing, thanks to the unswerving voices over the last few years, amplified by Mumsnet and other sources.

The sunlight is starting to be shone on disquieting practices, disturbing narratives, biased lobbying.

There are so many organisations who have been coerced into adopting policies, practices, changing their procedures and behaviours following 'training' and worrying that they are 'behind history' and wanting to avoid 'transphobia'.

More and more, the discussion here and in other places is shining a light on this coercion to highlight concerns and risks to women and children's safety, dignity, privacy and ability to define themselves.

Many contributors here, and the lurkers, are part of many of these types of organisations, and more and more are stating their concerns.

It seems there is a crossroads for organisations. With a couple of options:

1. wait until the inevitable scandal, once many individuals have already been harmed (though I suspect that the harm is already being done) and say 'we didn't realise'.

2. do something now, but risk, as an organisation, the wrath of the activist and 'scared-to-be-phobic' movement.

But no organisation wants to look stupid. No organisation wants to be the one 'to go first'. Most want so 'save face' and appear that they weren't part of a scandal.

How do we avoid getting to a moment, as we have over other issues, where everyone looks back on institutional errors and says 'how did this happen'?

So how do we support and enable these organisations, NHS England, schools, workplaces, etc, etc, to roll back whilst still 'saving face' before the inevitable scandal?

I don't have the answer. I expect some people to tell me 'the organisations just have to do the right thing, regardless of saving face'.

But often people need help to roll back from the cliff they're standing on, whilst still saving face.

I don't have an answer. Which is why I've started this thread.

To bring the thread back on topic I suggest you take this to AMA where I’m sure you will get interest.

This thread is about how to ensure organisations are supported and feel able to apply the law as it stands correctly without losing face or facing threats.

That’s the topic we’d like to discuss. AMA or a separate thread would be more appropriate for your life story.

Perhaps we should start using the word ‘Femphobe’. I.e fear of real women. The erosion of real women’s rights via the introduction of policies that give so-called ‘trans women’ access to women only spaces, putting them at risk is in my opinion Femphobic because it is putting the rights of one particular group of people over and above the rights of real women.

Claiming to be intersex seems to have become a thing for trans-identified males.

I imagine there will be quite a few people who decide to change jobs just before the mood on this changes. Some organisations might use that as an opportunity review their approach.

gym membership !!!!!!

I was about to say, by all means challenge people who have no business being in a particular space but don't you think the gun's a bit much??! How very un-British, etc.

(Totally ignores the me-railer in the hope they'll get bored and go away.)

yes vicviking. ultimately all these daft decisions are made by individuals, and then compounded by a corporate mindset.

I expect that the most sensible of those individuals, will, as the real issues start to show through, decide on a change of job with the aim of being well and truly distanced by the time the shit hits the fan.

I know the point of this thread is to prevent the shit hitting the fan, but I honestly don't know how we do that. People seem so wedded to the idea that 'good people' believe transwomen are women.

Ignoring the derailer.

If a current employment case proves to be well-founded and results in dismissal, the publicity will do a lot for the gender critical case. The press report is in the Daily Mail, I'm afraid, but I imagine it's been run past their lawyers. Discussed on this thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3320513-Jess-Bradley-first-transgender-student-officer-suspended-after-flashing-photos and on Twitter too. Needs considerable caution in case it all turns out to be a wind up, but interesting that the employee concerned has hired Carter Ruck, not the cheapest or lowest profile firm of solicitors.

Where are they getting the money for expensive lawyers? Posh kid or some org is paying for it?

I imagine the latter.

I checked the Carter Ruck website. They still offer no win no fee for defamation cases, so I imagine Jess engaged them in an effort to keep this out of the papers. Which has been unsuccessful!

I don't know how no win no fee works. Surely lawyers don't just take on anybody on that basis? They must do some due diligence to ensure if they do win their fees will get paid, and they must surely only take cases on that basis if they think there's a chance of winning, otherwise it would be disastrous financially.

I think that because transpose has been thrown around so much that it is losing it's power. It's similar to when people were called racist for even questioning immigration; people can see the difference between legitimate concerns and outright hate. The #nodebate things is beginning to not work.

Transphobe not transpose

If that where TRUE [Materialist] using the most simplest unbiased logic you would NOT have censored my own responses in line with Mumsnet guidelines, as they are a valid, informed, mature opinion (opposing view) ne fact equally in line with equality, human rights & even UK criminal law. Having had direct experience of that law, let alone guidelines, being implemented, due to my family, children & myself experienced hate crimes & Transpobia. Equally informing how said behaviour can and does in fact increase the risk of such not being acted upon, leading to an increased risk in relation to effective safeguarding. So to underline that I was in fact educating and pointing out that people philosophically thinking they are not bullying, does not mean they are not in fact fully aware they are, nor there sum effect amounts to Bullying (in reality) in relation to the sum of responses I received.

I'm waiting with interest to see how, or if, the usual suspects defend Jess Bradley.

I don't know how no win no fee works. Surely lawyers don't just take on anybody on that basis? They must do some due diligence to ensure if they do win their fees will get paid, and they must surely only take cases on that basis if they think there's a chance of winning, otherwise it would be disastrous financially.

One would imagine so. Perhaps the lawyers thought it would be easy to prevent publication? In which case, perhaps the tide is turning because MoS went ahead regardless.

Also and apropos of nothing: three deletions in a six week period may lead to withdrawal of posting privileges.

To pick up on sex and gender being equally non binary, not merely binary and its self a spectrum, research on exactly this and the WHO, current position.

My own experience very much a reflection of this, born with external male gentalia, internal female under developed sex biology. Born in the 1970's where I equally had other complications as a baby where they just did without properly informing ones parents. I new I was very ill as a baby and had a big scar relating to this, to the extent I was christened prior to surgery. But I only found out more when I later came out as Trans, so expereince being a Trans Woman like most Trans people do growing up up until that point. The spectum equally extends into the fetal develeopment of one nureology on this spectrum, genetic and visibly biological at one end, neurological towards the the other, due to hormonal influence on fetal development much like mirroring research on Autism, resulting in the same experience of simply being Gay as a Gay discovers.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-new-science-of-sex-and-gender/
Do click on citations
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4955762/

WHO
www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

In terms of actual debate on Transpbobia and Hate, its very real and very much does result in creating a mob and pitch fork hysteria that very much does translate into real actions in real life, Like oh Trans people must be paedophiles, so a bunch of jobs encouraged by parents being sucked into this ignorance, throw bricks through your windows, try to set fire to your house, bully and beat up you and your children, because you surely must be such a deviant horrible thing than actual person with a very down to earth life and lovely family. Its very dangerous, very dangerous and very real.

Its like people who support attacking GC feminists as 'terfs' create an atmosphere of hostility towards women, so women end up being doxxed and threatened with bombs.

Its Illegal but misogyny is so commonplace its not a hate crime.

Women have lived with the reality of violence for so long, and its so widely accepted, that society has allowed us single sex spaces and services to help us deal with it.

Incase people aren't aware, Samantha is posting here, taking screen shots & reporting her interpretation of posts/her deletions to MNHQ & Justine.

I'd suggest no further engagement.

She's clearly trying to get Linda Riley /Diva to commission an article off the back of this.

Grey rock people.

Ignoring the merailer and back to the topic:
My greatest concern is that companies / corporations will remain in fear of the 'transphobia' allegation and it won't be until the scandals emerge publicly that they will 'get' what women have been saying all along.

We have seen today an outrageous example of what can happen when someone has no acceptable sexual boundaries - whether it is boundaries about acceptable behaviour in the office, on public transport and even more worrying , about children in schools. We really mustn't wait until those people are given a free pass to places where children and adults are vulnerable. The public gets this but unless politicians give a lead, then too many will be in fear of the #nodebate lobby groups.

I wonder whether some letters asking M & S, Top Shop etc about whether they conducted any risk assessments in terms of the safety of women and children before introducing mixed sex changing rooms?

Would M & S accept liability if a child was confronted by someone with a penis was using the woman's changing room to indecently expose themselves - not of course that this would ever happen ..... oh wait......

Thanks Tension.

Well spotted "TensionWheelsCoolHeels", indeed to document trying to have a mature, informed measured debate in relation to in its self a worrying premise for the entire thread and again maturely allowing people to make up their own minds and interpret such as they wish, by providing the whole un-censored picture. One might say what Freedom of Speech, mature debate and often what real journalistic integrity/investigative journalism is all about. Especially in this heightened period of fake news, extremist propaganda becoming mainstream.

Samantha, I'm not going to engage with you except to say that you have repeatedly tried to make this thread all about you, and have been politely, and not politely, directed to start your own thread if you wish to discuss the issue of you and your beliefs, many of which have been discussed elsewhere.
This topic is not about your choice of conversation, therefore to attempt to steamroller it into your design, and then use screenshots of it to prove that the women here don't fall into line and argue with a derailment will probably fly with the credulous, but the readers of FWR, lurkers and posters alike, can see exactly what your game is.

Go well.

I've actually been approaching the very content you have been discussing, equally drawing on personal & family experiences to illustrate some very serious issues being discussed. The bigger issue is you simply don't like what I am saying because its an opposing view, so then resort to name calling and gaslighting. Projecting your own behaviour onto blaming me.

everydayfeminism.com/2015/08/things-wish-known-gaslighting/