Ending this madness but 'saving face'

[pombear]

I'm not good at starting threads so forgive me for the following clunkiness:

Given that the discussion is growing, thanks to the unswerving voices over the last few years, amplified by Mumsnet and other sources.

The sunlight is starting to be shone on disquieting practices, disturbing narratives, biased lobbying.

There are so many organisations who have been coerced into adopting policies, practices, changing their procedures and behaviours following 'training' and worrying that they are 'behind history' and wanting to avoid 'transphobia'.

More and more, the discussion here and in other places is shining a light on this coercion to highlight concerns and risks to women and children's safety, dignity, privacy and ability to define themselves.

Many contributors here, and the lurkers, are part of many of these types of organisations, and more and more are stating their concerns.

It seems there is a crossroads for organisations. With a couple of options:

1. wait until the inevitable scandal, once many individuals have already been harmed (though I suspect that the harm is already being done) and say 'we didn't realise'.

2. do something now, but risk, as an organisation, the wrath of the activist and 'scared-to-be-phobic' movement.

But no organisation wants to look stupid. No organisation wants to be the one 'to go first'. Most want so 'save face' and appear that they weren't part of a scandal.

How do we avoid getting to a moment, as we have over other issues, where everyone looks back on institutional errors and says 'how did this happen'?

So how do we support and enable these organisations, NHS England, schools, workplaces, etc, etc, to roll back whilst still 'saving face' before the inevitable scandal?

I don't have the answer. I expect some people to tell me 'the organisations just have to do the right thing, regardless of saving face'.

But often people need help to roll back from the cliff they're standing on, whilst still saving face.

I don't have an answer. Which is why I've started this thread.

"Transwomen are women. Any person disputing the existence of women with penises will be guilty of transphobia and escorted from the building."

"Q. So you think that your daughter is a lesbian? How can you help her?
A: See your GP about making her into a man. She'll be happier once her breasts and womb have gone. A lifetime of drug dependence is a small price to pay for male pattern baldness and facial hair."

Oops, my last post was on the wrong thread. (Note to self - don't leave so many tabs open when looking at feminism chat.)

Great post homefromthehills.

Can the 'no win no fee' solicitors smell pound signs in the air?

I've not been a fan of the USA litigious society but actually now I feel that when our rights are infringed who else can we go to?

What about all those poor women in prison forced to shower alongside a natal man? Or forced to share spaces with a convicted rapist? If anyone knows one of those women, or knows a no win no fee solicitor I think that would be a good place to start.

One of the things self id would bring in, with changed birth certificates, is a 'right' for any male to go into a women's prison (if they legally identified as a woman).

This is unless someone had the common sense to stop it. A male who raped two teenage girls is already in a female prison, do no safeguarding there!

So where exactly will the bar be for 'safely'. I honesty think there is no fucking bar.

I also think any parent whose daughter has shared an overnight space kr shower space with a male on a school trip or 'Girl Guides' trip, without express permission from the parent, should sue.

But that is harder as a young me who identifies as female could be a sympathetic figure and girls would really not want to be labelled as phobic.

But prisons, ful of disenfranchised women forced to share spaces with male prisoners. I think most of us can see the harm. Even those in positions of power who do not give a fuck, they must see the harm! If not, would they like to shower with a male-bodied prisoner!

I can't afford gun membership but if I could I would ask, are your changing rooms single sex. And get it in writing they are. and if not I'd say no thanks.

gym membership !!!!!!

Just returning to this as the OP to say thanks for lots of thoughtful content (was slightly concerned about your options for club membership there, italian before your corrected it!)

Lots of food for thought. It sort of goes hand-in-hand with another thread today about 'spreading the trans rights activists message' as another way of helping others see the issues which have been well-hidden up to now.

Hi all,

I'd seen all the fuss all over twitter about what some people have been talking about on Talk threads like this on Mumsnet.

So firstly this is my actual name, I'm not hiding behind a nickname to be transparent, inadvertently making a pun at the same time.

I'm a Mum of three boys, 21, 19 & 14 and I am post-op Male to Female 14 years. Hopefully you can spot my youngest was our last try for a girl before I had my op. I am equally very much a feminist.

I don't know where to start really I was initially optimistic on seeing the title "Ending this madness but 'saving face', yey I some of my peers on Twitter are blowing it all, up it will be really mature, like parents, especially mums are & matching my day to day experienced on that front.

Then immediately saw this, "How do we avoid getting to a 'Saville' post-event moment, where everyone looks back and says 'how did this happen'?"

I have to say I found this extremely shocking, more so for the Natal Mother of our children, in fact her whole family having been through violence and sexual abuse at the hands of her very father. She started to doing Nanny work to try and flee it. Which is how we met. Her the Nanny to the principles of a Girls Prep School and myself working in the kitchen with my mum the Head Cook.

So I think it really would be good to help dispel a lot of this unfounded fear surrounding Trans people, properly and maturely and educate on many myths that clearly are perpetuating paranoia and a totally unrealistic, unfounded and disproportionate level of fear. If this thread is anything to go buy.

So fire away, ask me questions and I'll do my best to answer, I will say creating a comparison between such things as the "Saville" scandal and Trans people is in its self very offensive & promotes hate.

All my best, Samantha

OK I’ll bite.

Do you understand how self ID will reduce child safeguarding procedures?

As a parent of three children, how do you feel about the safeguarding procedures that help to protect your children being diluted?

Please note that I am not talking about transpeople. I’m talking about your common or garden Male predators.

You're welcome to start a thread of your own, Samantha, instead of derailing this one.

We are concerned about how to stop predators misusing self ID to gain access to women only spaces and services, and how to preserve safeguarding.

We complain.

Complain, complain, complain, threaten to sue, boycott etc etc

Then they at least have the ability to say "we'd really like to make this place gender neutral but gosh darn it we've had so many complaints from those mean feminist that we're going to just have to compromise by providing a 3rd space for transpeople. It's not our fault, those mean feminists made us"

Not all of them will, but as long as they can pass blame onto us it gives them the option

Agree with this.

There is an AMA topic Samantha.

I would also like to point out that no one on this thread has made any of the links, connections or insinuations you have made re: saville.

You may a different thread in mind? Excuse my cynicism, but there have been several brand new posters recently parachuting into threads and saying such things. It does rather derail and in extreme cases can even lead people to the conclusion that the poster would have done so to provoke/provide screenshots.

I’m sure that’s not your intent.

Another one agreeing with complaining.
And frankly, withdrawing my custom from companies that deliberately remove safe spaces from women. I am prepared to accept that they are initially frightened by the shouts of transphobia but once women start saying 'no' I don't want my bra fitted by someone born male' and 'I don't want gender neutral changing rooms' if we are ignored then I'll shop elsewhere. It's not as if there isn't plenty of choice.

You're welcome to start a thread of your own, Samantha, instead of derailing this one.

This.

Please everybody - don't aid derailing of threads. It's almost impossible to have a decent conversation about a topic already. No point in helping it become even worse.

I’ve already stopped shopping at M and S. as you say, there is plenty of choice.

And again, I see the entire point of the concerns about the dilution of safeguarding are completely missed. There will very likely be a Savile post-event moment, where everyone looks back and says 'how did this happen? if we dilute safeguarding in the way that we currently are. And the victims will very possibly be kids with a trans identification.

IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.

How do organisations decide policies where they are faced with clashing and opposing interests now?

Organisations seem very keen on telling us that they consult; they seek out staff associations, stakeholders, customers and users in surveys and advisory meetings. They publish their findings, draft a policy and put it out for comment. They invite feedback and keep the policy under review.

What they don't do (unless they want egg on their faces) is to change their policies by stealth and secretly.

I commend the people who, following a tip-off from Woman's Place UK, examined the policies of their local authorities and found that the protected characteristic 'sex' had disappeared.

Following an exchange of emails, some councils changed the wording on their websites, apologised for getting it wrong, and were given a very public round of applause on Twitter.

Those councils that gave mealy-mouthed excuses for bending the interpretation of the law, had their responses retweeted. They were made to look ignorant of the difference between gender and sex. They received even more questions and comments than they expected, I suspect. Hopefully some residents and local media will pick up on the arrogance of law-benders, and take the matter further

Carrot and stick. A reminder that small changes affect rights enshrined in law.

What worries me is that I think the consultation is a done deal - penny mordant seems to be set of self ID plus no change to EA, then basically shoving all the responsibility into the individual service providers to make a justification on excluding men case by case.

This is the ultimate buck passing, because it’ll leave individual providers at risk of legal challenge and there will be an atmosphere of who shouts loudest and harassed them most wins. No one will want to be the first to test their case by case ‘proportionate and justified’ in court.

Interesting times ahead. I suppose we need to press very hard to strengthen the EA, to get precedents set and to oppose self ID.

I genuinely can't see how this turns around without some people losing face to be honest

the labour party are in for a rude awakening for example

I think the point to make is that we don't want to 'win'. we want to reach a position where everyone has privacy, dignity and safety. You don't achieve that for one group by removing it from another.

everyone should be able to compete fairly in competitive sport. you don't achieve that for one group by removing it from another

All parts of society should be proportionately represented in parliament and government. you don't erode the representing of an already under-represented group to increase the representation of another

Hi Bowelof babel fish,

Wonderful nickname, big fan of Douglas Adams. The first part of that is to deal with misconceptions regarding sexual offending in general terms. Which those their to protect are not always up to speed on, due to stretched resources and often poor staff retention.

Psychologist Dr Nina Burrowes an expert on sexual offending help dispel many myths in her series of videos, often myths automatically associated. It's very much NOT the stalker at the loo's thing, but a family member etc.

The other is to deal with this Trans Woman = Male myth, which is another longer post, its not as cut and dry as you may think.

In terms of safeguarding the reverse is actually true, it really is about dispelling these sort of myths and assumptions, as they actually create more risk, detract from the real risk. And better train all those within safeguarding to apply an un-biased forensic approach to such.

Myself having personal experience of my family and I having to safeguard my own children as a good example - the natal mum of our kids ended up moving in with this chap, who at the time, we later found our from the Police & Social Services was on remand for domestic violence against his last partner and children, they had not long had to flea the council house they shared, and he moved my ex and our kids virtually immediately into. He was in many ways like her very father.

The thing is as things progressed in terms of not only safeguarding my children but equally concerned about my ex's safety, even more dire social services & criminal history came up, including question marks on child sex abuse, but he had always managed to play the system, intimaidate people and wriggle out of such. This placed our kids at significant risk obvious and that local Police and Social Services where on top of it.

To cut a long story short he moved everyone to a social services area which was in special measures and more backwards in its attitudes and deflected/distracted by using Transphobia, placing our children and my ex at significantly more, risk and avoiding a forensic assessment. Once we got it to court the Judge was scathingly critical of social services.

I could go into even more detail on many fronts having been through domestic violence and sexual abuse as an Adult post op at the hands of a later natal Female Partner. The bottom line are that assumptions or bias in any regard are dangerous, especially if fuelled by irrational fear, it can be hard enough to be believed when facing & trying to report such things as a natal woman, it often a whole other layer in a same sex relationship, another still if your trans even if post op.

Bare with I am not quick at typing, so it will take me a while to go through replies and answer all aspects fully

I think this may be better on another thread, samantha - the AMA topic is a good one? This thread is about how individual organisations and service providers can/should/will/won’t be able to change back policy to make it in line with existing law, after having been given incorrect information by lobby groups to ‘get ahead’ of the law.

All the best.

It is Bowl, not bowel.
What a rude typo, if it was one.

The other is to deal with this Trans Woman = Male myth, which is another longer post

trans woman = male

Is factually correct so I wouldn’t waste your time, tbh.

Just to quickly add to that long reply to Bowelof babel fish, just so you know my family and my own approach was to make sure my ex and my kids where safe together. She's a lovely mum and was very much targeted due to being far too open about her past on social media, where he found her.