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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

another film-from-the-eighties thread: Pretty Woman

103 replies

speakingwoman · 22/07/2018 11:03

followng the Private Benjamin re-appreciation thread - did anyone see Pretty Woman last night?

I first watched it when I was 16.

I have to say, it was 100 times better than I expected and I'd recommended it. Roberts moves her long body like my lanky 15 year old moves his - like she doesn't know what to do with all that length. it's such clever acting - makes you feel so protective towards her.

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speakingwoman · 22/07/2018 11:06

also, while there's no female gaze, there are loads of scenes that are all about filming the literal male gaze - but in a critical way, over several minutes.

I think the great thing about old movies is that they talk openly about things that we nowadays try to hide/think are in our past.

it's also very cool that, whilst he takes her to see Traviata, she goes unpunished.....

Really impressed.

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LassWiADelicateAir · 22/07/2018 11:15

Pretty Woman is a vile film.

Yet another fictional representation of prostitution where it is prettifyied and glossed over what she really does.

Starkstaring · 22/07/2018 11:17

I have always hated Pretty Woman for its portrayal of the happy hooker myth.

birdsdestiny · 22/07/2018 11:18

It's an awful film. Thank god it wouldn't be made today.

LassWiADelicateAir · 22/07/2018 11:18

I saw a very critical documentary about it few years ago. One of the people being interviewed was a vice cop in LA. He did a better feminist critique on it than you OP.

LassWiADelicateAir · 22/07/2018 11:20

There is a thread in Chat about it which is fawning over it. I was expecting this thread to be a counter to that thread.

Fienda · 22/07/2018 11:23

Yeah ... I watched this a few years ago, (missed it way back when), and it was just jaw-droppingly awful to me.

I couldn't believe it, I was expecting to love it as I'd heard such rave reviews.

Instead I watched as a smug abusive older git buys sex from a young naive woman, who's playing the role of a Cheerful Prostitute (because it's a lovely life for anyone you know), and then they try to make it a Cinderella ending too. Abysmal.

... Unless it was meant to make us think that, thus being very clever?

LaMainDeFatima · 22/07/2018 11:23

I think it is probably the worst portrayal of the life of a prostitue there ever was

I presume OP you are being ironic since you posted in the feminist chat section

speakingwoman · 22/07/2018 11:27

no, not ironic at all!

I hated it for all the reasons set out above in the 1980s but now I feel differently.

You have to try things again at different ages I think. I can remember my smug 1980s self desising Katherine Hepburn in films... what a twit I was Smile.

I cheerfully wave my feminist badge and dare you to watch it all the way through.

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speakingwoman · 22/07/2018 11:27

"despising" not desising.

it's good not to agree with each other on everything.

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AmberLangslow · 22/07/2018 11:27

It’s rubbish but does have some degree of nostalgia factor for me so I did quite enjoy it last time I saw it. I am aware that it is actually really crap though! My husband thinks it’s dreadful and probably wouldn’t stay in the room if it was on.

Have you seen the original screenplay? That’s quite an interesting read.

Fienda · 22/07/2018 11:28

... So now you think it was being clever and trying to make the point that she was vulnerable, and it wasn't realistic?

(I also don't quite get what you mean, why didn't you like Katherine Hepburn?)

LassWiADelicateAir · 22/07/2018 11:28

I have seen it. I have given my opinion.

speakingwoman · 22/07/2018 11:29

"Have you seen the original screenplay?"

steady on..... I do have the theatrical script for Amadeus (naturally) but one can take these things too far.....

I'd sort of assumed it was an attempt at an updated Pygmalion?

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MillyTheKid · 22/07/2018 11:29

I've never seen it and never intend to because of the happy hooker plot. I remember quite a damning critique of it at the time when someone (I can't remember her name) was sarcastically saying how the film showed how much fun it must be to suck dicks for a few dollars down some backstreet.

LighthouseSouth · 22/07/2018 11:29

@speakingwoman

"it's also very cool that, whilst he takes her to see Traviata, she goes unpunished....."

what does that mean please?

AmberLangslow · 22/07/2018 11:30

I think this is it.

www.awesomefilm.com/script/Pretty-Woman-($3,000).pdf

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 22/07/2018 11:30

I agree with Lass and most of those who've commented subsequently. Pretty Woman worried me as a teenager and reduced me to seething anger when I revisited it in my 20s.

I believe that it wasn't initially expected to do well by the studio - that they were confounded was largely due to Roberts. It made her career of course, but with a less talented actress, I think it would have sunk as it probably deserved.

LassWiADelicateAir · 22/07/2018 11:33

I'm really puzzled- you used to despise Katherine Hepburn? Strsight talking, quick witted, brooks no nonsense, strong independent Katherine Hepburn - but you admire Pretty Woman?

Fienda · 22/07/2018 11:33

Yes, I mean, it was a different time, but she often played powerful masculine women on film. (Some of them were pretty grim though I agree!)

Do you mean Audrey Hepburn?

terryleather · 22/07/2018 11:34

I've never walked out of a film in my life, but I've wanted to do so on two occassions - one was Pretty Woman which a friend persuaded me to see.

Two hours of my life I can never get back...

birdsdestiny · 22/07/2018 11:36

I have seen the whole film, in terms of feminist analysis it's on a par with Jim Davidson.

ErrolTheDragon · 22/07/2018 11:37

The premise of the chat thread is that it's shite, and many posters agree.

speakingwoman · 22/07/2018 11:39

sorry lighthouse....

Usually, any transgressive woman has to be punished. In the 19th Century, authors started writing works around transgressive women as the central characters. They got interested in the stories of transgressive women.

These stories were usually written as tragedies. Tess of the D'Ubertvilles is the classic example. There is even a chapter or section title that is simply called "The Woman Pays"

The opera that the characters go to see in Pretty Woman is (I think) La Traviata - the betrayed woman. It's about a prostitute. It was very radical in that the story is centred on the experience of the prostitute.
However, like Tess, she must sacrifice herself, and she must die.

Much art was far more cynical. Trollope has a whole novel called "Can you Forgive Her?". The question is addressed to the reader. It's horrific.

So there was a real norm in art that you could write about a transgressive woman but she must be miserable. George Eilliot does it much more subtly in Middlemarch (the transgression is more subtle, the penalty is more subtle, but it's the same thing just less cheesy, and we all have to accept that it's all ok because "things are not so bad with you and I as they might have been" had the woman not lived).

Pygmalion/My Fair Lady (on which Pretty Woman is clearly based) has a slightly different thing going on. It has to end with Eliza crawling back to the older man and humbling herself before him. I hate that ending with a passion.

Pretty Woman is a positive film in that

  • the woman doesn't pay
  • the woman walks away because she values herself
  • the man has to crawl back to the woman.

To be honest, I never really think of it as being anything to do with portraying prostitution. That's like judging Cinderella for being about poverty.

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LassWiADelicateAir · 22/07/2018 11:41

Do you mean Audrey Hepburn?

Breakfast at Tiffany's glosses over how Holly Golightly earns her money. It's saving grace I suppose is that whilst Holly finds love and a partner at the end she isn't rescued by a rich man who earlier in the film had bought her.