Should we as women fight for a safe third space?

[Notevilstepmother]

I’m not an expert on any of this, I’ve started reading recently so please be nice!

It seems to me there are 2 types of trans and unconventional dressing people, the genuine type who aren’t demanding anything, but just want to be left alone to get on with their day safely. These people are possibly quite vulnerable to attacks by macho types who for some reason feel threatened by them. These people would benefit from a safe space. However they are not a large number of people, and many of them are shy about their needs. I say people as it could be f t m as well as m t f that might be safer in a 3rd space.

The other type is the 🦇 💩 demanding lady penis uterus free period type that want to force their way into our safe space. They don’t want a safe space, they want validation and don’t give a crap who’s safe space they violate.

I know women say we fought for our safe space, others need to do the same, but if we fight for and get the 3rd space, it makes our space safer too, as it weakens the argument for activists in our space.

Any thoughts? Much to all in my first group.

I don't think it would work - the aggressive, validation-seeking activists who want in our spaces now would just take the fight there instead (leaving aside the whole why the fuck should we argument). I know a handful of these people personally and that is absolutely what they would do.

Transmen and people that ID as non binary or the XX sex are welcome in women only spaces via law.

The feminists that centre XY males I am sure would be happy to campaign for transwomen spaces.

No, it wouldn’t work. The aggressive trans activists of today have piggybacked on transsexuals and subsumed them into their movement. There is only three ways to go I think, keep medical gatekeeping as it is, self ID which would lead to a free for all, or rollback the gender recognition act altogether and strip transsexuals of the rights that they currently have. I don’t want the latter, the second is unthinkable, so we need to stick to our guns.
The third space is problematic because trans activists don’t want it. Even if we divert our attention to fighting for a third space, they’ll still be after ours. Also a third space would be difficult to implement with current facilities, so it either wouldn’t happen, or facilities for disabled people would be co-opted instead, or the women’s would be turned into unisex, because of urinals blah blah blah.
The trans activists agenda is clear. They want women’s spaces.

Yes it's all about the validation so whereever the source of the validation goes the party requiring validation goes too. Absolutely nothing to do with safety

Welcome.

There aren't two types of trans really.
(Well, apart from the two sexes within trans people)
There is only one way to be trans.

To be trans is to reject one's own sex and insist in at least one way that one be accepted by and as the opposite sex.
Either through demanding opposite sex pronouns, or opposite sex nouns like female or woman or girl, with or without a prefix.
Within the group of biological males that demand acceptance as females/women/transwomen there exists a variation of characteristics pertaining to surgery, hormones and political beliefs. And personalities. There are lovely and horrid people in all parts of society and that includes people who fall under the trans umbrella.

I'm only aware of one person who is trans and who accepts their own sex and makes no demands upon any of the words, rights or spaces of the opposite sex. He now doesn't use woman,transwomen,female pronouns etc for himself.
All other transwomen, even those who claim to be gender critical, still describe themselves in at least one way as 'woman'.

I can think of one famous fully transitioned transwoman, who is same sex attracted, who appears to detest women and enjoys telling us how we are dirty and how we must accept him as a woman. Fully surgically transitioned but no GRC, so legally male.

I don't see him as less of a problem in female space than a fully intact hetero male crossdresser. Or a biological male with a GRC who is therefore legally female.

The 'quietly get on with their own lives' trope is misleading, unless that involves never expecting others to participate in the pretence of a 'changed sex'. In which case, how is that person trans at all?

Female spaces are for females. There are 33 million of us in the UK. We already won our own spaces after a hard fight. I'm not ready to cede that now.
Even if we did, who here believes that men would happily let it stand that females get anything for themselves that once again excludes men?

Ceding the right to our own boundaries can never strengthen our position to start again from scratch. It simply sends the message that if you push hard enough, women will give up.

For males? We have enough to do. If they wanted that, they could have it tomorrow - transpeople just snap their fingers and women's spaces are handed over. They don't want it. We just need to keep our women's spaces. After that, I'm not bothered. Make the men's mixed sex? Best idea out there.

Why should we do the shitwork? Why shouldn't they campaign for their third space because we say no fucking way are you coming into the women's?

Anyway, as shown with Hampstead Ponds these activists don't want a 3rd space. There are 3 ponds on Hampstead Heath - women's, men's, mixed. People who think they aren't the sex they're born can use the mixed, but that's not good enough. They want the women's too.

This isn't about trans rights. It's about decimating women's rights.

Barracker, yes to your final paragraph. It’s not up to us to give ground. We are not asking for it, we don’t want it, and if we do give, even just a little bit, what’s next? When have men ever willingly given ground to us? When have they ever fought for us?
Pragmatism is only a good solution when both sides cooperate. When one side is hellbent on getting what they want at any cost it doesn’t work. I know this from personal experience. I’ve spent so much of my life sitting on the fence that I’ve got a permanent groove in my arse, but when your starting position is on the fence you only ever get pushed backwards.

No girly being nice female socialisation on this one. It was designed to make us easy to shit all over, that’s the point.

No - I don't think it's fair to put others at risk - it's impossible as it stands to tell perpetrators from genuine.

N.B. I just read a blog post where a young MTF were being preyed upon by older ones in trans workshops and at least one was reporting being coerced into sexual favours as well as many as being perved upon,

Don't need a third space. Just turn the men's into the gender neutral space. And leave the women's for who it was designed for. Biological women. Simple.

And no I'm not campaigning. Not my issue. I've had enough of trans rights overiding women's safety. I will continue however campaign to keep men out of the biological women's toilets / safe spaces.

Welcome!

I agree with the others: it wouldn't work because validation is the name of the game.

And, as Sweary said, why would I? There are enough issues facing women and girls (including but most definitely not limited to trans issues) to take up all my time.

It might work in that if we have positive suggestions , especially ones that some transpeople agree with, then it comes across as reasonable.

If we are seen to actively support ( some) transpeople then it makes the divisions in their community more apparent. And it is harder to accuse people working with transpeople for solutions as transphobic.

Yes it won't stop a tra, but it's not a tra who needs to be influenced. Their minds are mad enough up. , its members of the general public and members of parliament and the press who need to be influenced. And they may well prefer a something that people from across different classes can agree wth.

Firstly I think men should do their own work/campaigning as it is not women that are making them feel unsafe. But more importantly I dont think it is what the tra's want. They want the validation of access to female spaces. A third option would not do this. It's probably also impractical in terms of money, space in buildings etc. I mean some places find it too much trouble to create properly accessible disabled facilities.

I so want us to campaign for third spaces... and not just physical spaces - Also, recording things like crimes (especially sexual) committed by transpeople rather than recording as committed by women - and potentially trans-sport, etc....

No other way makes sense... No women should have a penis in any sex-segregated space

I don't think I've ever seen a TRA genuinely asking women to join them in a battle for third spaces. I've seen a couple of petulant complaints that women are being obstructionist and if they are so bothered by the presence of penis bearers in their spaces, they should campaign for third spaces, but I don't believe this was ever a serious suggestion.

Rather, I think this was another attempted gotcha to show that concern about women and girls was, in fact, anti-trans, because only by a third space campaign could we show what genuinely nice types we are.

Which, as other posters ont' thread have said, is a diversionary tactic from the focus of feminist action on the liberation of women and girls to try and change the focus back onto every other perceived problem in the world because obviously women and girls are just not important enough for a sole focus.

So, in that best approximation of a genteel, concerned about everyone, respectable lady I can muster, Fuck that.

I like it when you swear, Floral!

Apart from anything else if we did that the same people creating a problem now would just demand access to that space too.

Actually never mind, lack of coffee, I thought you meant let them have women's space and then ask for a safe third space for us. Which would be barmy, but people have been suggesting so many barmy things lately I assumed that's what you meant.

(Off to refill coffee.)

Nah.
Validation won't be gotten from a third space.
I would not waste my time fighting for any extra space for such narcissists.
And if we did and managed to get such a space, their narcissism wouldn't let them use it.
Not a hill I will die on, not when they are being so shitty to us.

I wonder should we just give up on all this and start again.

Look for a safe space for women (the ones born as girls, obviously) women's toilets, changing rooms, sports, organisations etc etc.

Let the transwomen have the women's spaces (along with all the women who don't mind sharing with men) and have a safe third space for vulva-havers.

We've done it before; surely we could do it again. I fancy a women-only Olympic games, for example.

Ooops, too many tabs open

I see I've missed an entire chunk of thread.

If that third space is Mixed Sex it could accommodate transitioners, GNC, NB and any female or male who is happy to use Mixed Sex [given that the "woke" younger ones say they are so keen to do this!] while leaving Men's Rooms for all males who need/want privacy, safety and dignity and Women's Rooms for all females who need/want privacy, safety and dignity?

I would definitely join a campaign for more unisex private spaces, alongside a ban on male bodied people in female only spaces. I would take the space from the men's spaces where necessary.

I have battled long and hard for women's equality and been frustrated at many levels. So I do not intend to fight a battle that further diminishes the female voice. Let Trans people fight their own battles. We are an entire, biologically female army they have to do battle with.