Diva editor, responds to 'lesbian rights alliance' article in the times.

[garam]

Another strongly worded restating of support for trans rights....

"A Times article, published today, announces “lesbian fury at Stonewall over ‘trans agenda’”, as if the 135 signatories of an open letter speak for every lesbian in the world.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Given DIVA’s unequivocal stance on trans issues, I’m sure it goes without saying, but for anyone not quite sure: those 135 signatories do not speak for us, or for the majority of cisgender lesbians.

The letter, from an organisation calling themselves the Lesbian Rights Alliance, accuses Stonewall of erasing lesbians and says: “Stonewall has rarely represented our interests. Now in your single-minded policy to promote the trans political and ideological agenda you not only fail to represent us but you actually promote lesbian invisibility – and lesbian erasure.”

I do agree that lesbians are underrepresented in the LGBT community. But it's worse for bisexual people, and even more so for trans people who are also lesbian or bisexual. That's why it's so important that a magazine like DIVA exists, and that an organisation like Stonewall is women-led and promotes bi and trans inclusion. It's the likes of DIVA and Stonewall who are making us more visible.

In fact, I'd go further. It is not Stonewall – or any other LGBT organisation – erasing lesbian identities, but these so-called feminists who, by peddling hateful and transphobic rhetoric, make people like me not want to use the word lesbian to describe myself because I don’t want to be associated with their views. What a sad state of affairs.

The letter continues: “We urge you to stop claiming to represent us and leave the L out.”

Take your own advice, LRA, and stop claiming to represent lesbians. You do not speak for me, for DIVA, or for the majority of our community.

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say again, trans women do not erase lesbians. I believe we are enriched by trans friends and lovers, parents, children, colleagues and siblings.

Groups like the LRA would have you believe that it’s “them versus us”. It’s not. They are us. We’re one and the same, and we can’t let divisive, hateful and misguided people drive a wedge between us.

DIVA publisher Linda Riley agrees with me. She says: “It seems ironic to me to complain about a lack of lesbian visibility while, at the same time, asking the L to be removed from LGBT.

“We are stronger as a community and 135 lesbians should not be able to decide what a whole community should believe.”"

@WeAreGerbil

Me too. I ended up being a lesbian for quite a while even though it didn't feel right as an identity just to fit in, I can understand the pressure that young people are under to stick with an identity that fits with the community you're in even if it's not quite who you are.

I did the opposite. I'd been bullied at school and there was no way I was changing anything about myself to fit in with another groups expectations of who I should be.

For all those people hitting me their definitions of lesbians, go and tell Diva, go and tell the various lesbian groups that have denounced GettheLout or whatever, I'm just sitting here with a biccy and a drink perusing a forum, I think maybe you should go and throw tantrums at non-transphobic lesbians, oh hang on, thats already happening.

I'm neither a 'biological or trans' lesbian these labels do not apply to me either way, I have both 'biological and trans' lesbian friends, I have simply took notice of the debate and the overwhelming support for trans women from various lesbian groups.

And as such posted a counterview to the minority opinion being signal boosted on here as representative.

female biology can and does include the biology of all types of human

It can't and it doesn't. Female biology doesn't include males. Not unless you're bent on destroying any useful meaning of 'female' too.

Re identifying as bi... my dd started uni this year; she's not made any comment re the women students but said all the males she knows are gay or bi. I'm inclined to take that with a pinch of salt TBH.

Tantrums? Misogynistic, much?

@RiddleyW Or, you know, we're excluded unless we are willing to pretend to be a 'proper' lesbian.

Really cool to be mistrusted and judged by both gay and straight people and apparently it's fine to stereotype us - we're all confused, gay-but-don't-want-to-admit-it, promiscuous, bi-women are just bi to titillate a boyfriend.

mirime It worked for me for a bit, my father was abusive so being in a community of women was good in lots of ways, and at the beginning I did think I'd never have a relationship with a man again. It just wasn't all of who I was though and it became harder to hide a bit of myself. This was quite a long time ago though, before even LGB was a thing. Perhaps things are easier for young bi women now, I have no idea. My teenage DD's friends all appear to be straight so far.

I'm sorry some of you have been given grief, dismissed and ostracised for being bi.

Before coming across the whole mess with TRAs, this was the issue that irked me the most about the LGBT "community."

@WeAreGerbil I hope they are easier, though a quick google last night (after reading too many lesbian feminst blogs) suggested there is still a fair amount of bi-phobia out there - which is why I'm a bit wound up about it today.

I ended up married to a man who accepts me as I am (and doesn't seem to find me being bi a turn on).

Mirime oh yes, a turn on or a threat, I've had both, sometimes at the same time!

The thing is though I understand why (some) lesbians are wary of bisexual women, so I don't really know what the answer is - but I know it's definitely not forcing ourselves into their communities or shouting biphobia at everything they say.

On a personal level I have found women in general are the most bi-phobic group. I wonder if bisexual men have more difficulty being accepted by men? I think we put people on edge, esp if they're not 100% comfortable with the label they've chosen for themselves.

Sorry I didn’t mean to imply that was all bisexuals.

but I know it's definitely not forcing ourselves into their communities or shouting biphobia at everything they say.

Definitely not, I don't want that either. Some of what I read was definitely bi-phobic though - that we spread STDs to lesbians and essentially rape them. I understand that it's probably a minority saying that sort of thing, but it did leave me feeling quite disheartened.

go and tell Diva, go and tell the various lesbian groups

What, to you mean infiltrated penis-centred impostors of lesbian groups?

Not much point in talking to them really.

I can even empathise with that mirime - I do understand that statistically a bisexual woman is more likely to have an STI than a lesbian woman, so I can see where the thinking comes from. Still feels personally a bit shit, but I do see the point. I guess the rape stuff is around informed consent too? - can't say I've seen worse than that, and again, I can empathise with that position but it still feels crap.

*What, to you mean infiltrated penis-centred impostors of lesbian groups?

Not much point in talking to them really.*

But how do true lesbians eat their porridge is the question...

Especially as the only people I have had issues with from an STI or a rapey/informed consent perspective have all been in possession of a Y chromosome. Do often wonder if I'd still be bi if the world wasn't so heteronormative...?

'Lesbian', you see, is a nationality like 'Scottish'. Some people are Scottish because they're born there. Some, because they come to live there in later life. Some have never been there but their family history and name is Scottish. Some have a fondness for tartan - sometimes in kilts or scarves, sometimes in tasteful throw cushions. Others occasionally wear nylon ginger wigs and put on Scottish accents like Russ Abbott.

But they all identify as Scottish. So anyone who wants to be definite about what constitutes being Scottish is clearly a bigot.

@BeyondRadicalisationPortal no, it was around penetration of any sort. 'Real' lesbians don't use any sort of penetration and bi women introduce that (as well as sex toys) and that encourages rape and abusive behaviour.

Every time certain pp go on about "female lesbians", I might just post this explanation of gay vs lesbian from Modern Family

So, just to clarify, garam thinks that the Equalities Act requires lesbians to say yes to cock?

Pretty sure that wasn't the intent of the people who drafted and passed that law, mate.

AngryAttackKittens
So, just to clarify, garam thinks that the Equalities Act requires lesbians to say yes to cock?

Pretty sure that wasn't the intent of the people who drafted and passed that law, mate.

Nope never said that, for the third time, I said everyone has the right to choose who their sexual partners are, and nobody else.

UpsatartCrow suggested the equality act somehow has something to do with sexuality, and I made a sarcastic remark to respond to the clearly weird reply.

*UpstartCrow
“We are stronger as a community and 135 lesbians should not be able to decide what a whole community should believe.”"

thats 135 lesbioans and The Equality Act.*

For clarity, everyone has the right to choose their sexual partner, no if's no but's.

And people do not get to define someone else's sexuality, including transphobes, who do not have the right to tell lesbians they are no longer lesbian whatever the circumstances.

Glad to help..

transphobes, who do not have the right to tell lesbians they are no longer lesbian whatever the circumstances.

So who is allowed to tell women who do dick and men who dick women that they are not lesbians then?

Should we all just sit and nod while lesbian culture is appropriated by bisexuals, straight women and men?

The thing is though I understand why (some) lesbians are wary of bisexual women, so I don't really know what the answer is - but I know it's definitely not forcing ourselves into their communities or shouting biphobia at everything they say.

Gosh yes this. I understand why Lesbians are wary of bi women. I was frustrated by it for a time when I was a younger but I got it and never tried to force myself into the lesbian community.
I never once shouted Bi phobia or “called anyone out”. I certainly never threatened violence or phoned their place of work.

On the original topic, I would like to point out that 135 lesbians isn't zero lesbians. It's 135. I actually agree with some of that statement, especially this: 'It’s not. They are us. We’re one and the same, and we can’t let divisive, hateful and misguided people drive a wedge between us.'

The problem is, for that to be a reality, we have to listen to each other. We have to recognise that there are hateful and misguided people on both sides of the argument. We also have to accept that there are people on both sides making very valid points, points which are usually dismissed and shut down instead of acknowledged. It's possible to be a lesbian and disagree with the protesters at pride and with trans rights activists pushing the notion that having a 'genital preference' most likely means you are transphobic and you really need to unpack that.

*So who is allowed to tell women who do dick and men who dick women that they are not lesbians then?

Should we all just sit and nod while lesbian culture is appropriated by bisexuals, straight women and men?*

Thats not the issue I'm making, you entitled to your opinion and obviously can think whatever you want. But you don't get to tell lesbians who support trans women and have a trans lesbian partner, your opinion of their sexuality is more valid than their own.

In 99% of society this is common sense, on here it seems people don't like to be told not to harass lesbians who disagree with them.

'Penis-centered imposters' I believe was the term someone used as a slur against trans supporting lesbians earlier in the thread.

I mean I know it's an echo-chamber an' all but really, have you lot heard yourselves.