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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Planet fitness bans another woman who objects to man in woman's locker room.

80 replies

noeffingidea · 17/07/2018 18:51

Planet fitness (US) once again a man's wishes over the safety and privacy of their female clientele, and revokes a woman's membership when she complains.
Tell me again how this won't happen, and no one will abuse self ID

www.lifesitenews.com/news/planet-fitness-bans-woman-for-objecting-to-sharing-locker-room-with-transge

OP posts:
Deathgrip · 17/07/2018 19:54

If a man deliberately exposed himself intending to cause alarm or distress then he is committing the offence of exposure not voyeurism. I think he would find it very hard to argue he did not intend to cause alarm and was surprised when people were alarmed

I’m sorry but I am literally laughing out loud at the naïveté of this statement

Ofew · 17/07/2018 19:55

If staff had repeated reports of a person harassing women and not acted are they not failing in their duty of care?

Yes, quite possibly. I would hope a judge would give short shrift to a company who said they didn't do anything about the pervy guy in the changing room because they were worried about being transphobic or whatever.

But the fact remains that it is incredibly difficult and expensive, not to mention traumatic, to bring this sort of case. It's not an answer to the concerns over self ID to say there are legal remedies for victims (I know you know this Bowl).

OldCrone · 17/07/2018 19:57

SarahAr
You said:
But the thing is that a GRC does not give people the right to enter female spaces. So it matters nought whether a medical process needs to be followed or self-id is introduced.

So a transwoman with a GRC does not have a right to enter female spaces.

But then in your next post you said:
FWIW transwomen with penises are allowed today to use women's changing rooms (and could sue for discrimination if they are barred).

So a transwoman with a GRC does have a right to enter female spaces.

Are you confused or are there multiple people posting from your account?

LastTrainEast · 17/07/2018 20:05

If a man deliberately exposed himself.. but it wouldn't be a man would it as the person would simply claim "'I'm a girlie because I like pink frocks' and everyone would go "phew! ok false alarm then. Nothing happening here"

PissedOffWoman · 17/07/2018 20:08

@longtimelurking Flowers

ISaySteadyOn · 17/07/2018 20:13

Deathgrip indeed. The justice system has such a good track record of believing women after all. Hmm

Ereshkigal · 17/07/2018 20:20

If you did mean a man, then he does not have a right to enter a changing room under the EA. If you meant a transwomen then this is clearly the case where the exceptions would apply.

Oh would they? That's good to know. I see why you're saying it's not a problem then. Can I quote you on that?

Ereshkigal · 17/07/2018 20:21

FWIW transwomen with penises are allowed today to use women's changing rooms (and could sue for discrimination if they are barred

MAKE UP YOUR MIND.

Ereshkigal · 17/07/2018 20:22

Are you confused or are there multiple people posting from your account?

Thank you, I thought it was just me!

SpareRibFem · 17/07/2018 20:23

Since we know of one school who did nothing about the pervy teen masturbating (with her penis) whilst she struggling here as that sentence sounds absurd but I must use proscribed pronouns watched teenage girls change because the school was afraid of being called transphobic I have no confidence that things will be better after self-Id.

The schools fear of trans activists meant the girls were sexually abused with no adults at the school stepping in. (Note being forced to undress whilst a man masturbates is generally treated as a criminal offence)

Bowlofbabelfish · 17/07/2018 20:32

If a man deliberately exposed himself

Then the damage is done. Safeguarding is not about responding after the fact - it’s aim is to keep people SAFE. To prevent things happening.

It’s simply not good enough to say ‘well if someone is pissing you off call the police/the authorities/the desk staff at the gym/a teacher.

As ofew says above, quite rightly But the fact remains that it is incredibly difficult and expensive, not to mention traumatic, to bring this sort of case. It's not an answer to the concerns over self ID to say there are legal remedies for victims

Ereshkigal · 17/07/2018 20:35

It's not an answer to the concerns over self ID to say there are legal remedies for victims

Quite. Or we could apply the same logic to all men, and there would be no reason for sex or even "gender" segregated spaces.

Bowlofbabelfish · 17/07/2018 20:35

If self ID comes in, Her Majesty’s Prison & Probation Service will certainly adjust their guidelines to maintain the status quo.

How?

They will not be able to deny any request for transfer
The numbers involved will overwhelm the safe space capacity
They will not be able to go case by case.

They will not be able to magic up more segregated unit spaces. Those prisoners will be in with the women. 47% of those prisoners are sex offenders.

How will this be ok?

fedupandwornout · 17/07/2018 20:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bowlofbabelfish · 17/07/2018 20:43

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2525441/Transgender-murderer-Paris-Green-moved-womens-prison-sex-inmates.html

Firstly, there have already been cases of people convicted of murder allowed to associate with female prisoners - unsupervised enough to have sex with them.

Secondly... let me find the post..

Ereshkigal · 17/07/2018 20:44

You're not off the mark at all. Not sure why I missed your post. I would argue that women equally have a proportionate and legitimate argument to exclude all males, if women's privacy and dignity are respected.

Ereshkigal · 17/07/2018 20:46

A fair impact assessment would consider both positions and arguably not enshrine one group's feelings over another's when there are third spaces/solutions that can be used.

longtimelurkingtrans · 17/07/2018 20:46

Thank you noeffingidea and PissedOffWoman

Bowlofbabelfish · 17/07/2018 20:50

Ok quoting from that thread pencilsinspace

The prison service go by legal sex, first and foremost. They're not allowed to ask to see a GRC but they can ask for a birth certificate (the sole remaining thing a GRC is good for). If a prisoner has a female birth cert (original or obtained via a GRC) they will be housed in the female estate unless they present an exceptional risk, in which case they may be moved to a men's prison, purely because this is where the facilities are. They will still be housed separately from men and will be accommodated in line with PSI for female prisoners. TW prisoners with a GRC are treated as female in all circumstances...Changing the GRA to a self-ID process would allow all of them to be treated as female. The vast majority would have to be moved to the female estate, with only the few exceptionally dangerous ones remaining in the male estate, but housed there as female prisoners.

Prison governors themselves have expressed worries about this: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/governors-fight-trans-inmates-in-women-s-jails-vg0kpv5q0?shareToken=2a1a45ad952bd5af1fe2bbe36944321c

Bowlofbabelfish · 17/07/2018 20:52

fedup apologies I don’t think I’ve read your post (I’ll go look) but yes - that’s exactly the question I’m asking.

Why no impact assessment?
Where is the duty of care?

seafret · 17/07/2018 20:53

Thanks bowl and erish!!

It seems rather straight forward if even my hard of thinking can get it.

'Just' (ha!) needs pushing forth assertively and test casing which is the expensive and draingin bit. I nearly had to fight under the EA for dsiability issues but could not afford legal help and had other circs so it did not go anywhere.

I was asking if anyone local to Hampstead Ponds could be helped to take a case forward. I thnk anyone not local would just be seen as a trouble maker rather then being legitimately affected.

Italiangreyhound · 17/07/2018 20:57

@longtimelurkingtrans I am so sorry to hear about what happened to you

seafret · 17/07/2018 20:59

OOps NC fail :(

Bowl and Ofew

I posted this about Hampsted Ponds but no one repsinded! Am I way off the mark!!?

Would there be an argument here that the gym has not just failed to provide, but removed a single sex facility that existed. What risk assessment/ justification/ rationale was used for this?

But we should argue that this is a policy that discriminates against women. The 'legit' aim is to be trans inclusive (or not trans exclusive) and to provide facilitities to trans people and increasing their participation etc, but that the means (removing single sex exemption by the allwoing of selfID) of achieving this aim discriminates aganst women and is not a proportionate means of achieving a legit aim.

It discriminates against women because it fails to offer women environments that increase women's use of ponds/ gyms which is necessary to overcome historical off putting factors (insert clever words here). The provision of single sex is allowed and even required under the EA and espcially the EA Public Duty in order that marginalised groups are no longer under-represented and to combat historical factors etc.

But organisations are required to 'balance' the needs in cases where needs compete or conflict.

By removing single sex provision entirely with slefID rather than simply providing an additional mixed sex area and more individual cubicles, to achieve trans inclusion, the policy is disproportionate ie it does more than is necessary to achive the aim (of inclusion) and the effect is to discriminate against women (including women with certain religious beliefs or certain MH disabilities eg PTSD which are themselves protected characteristics) when it entirely removes any means of increasing women's participation (which is necessary to fulfill the Public Duty under the EA) and actively prevents some women from taking part.

Legally, it is not enough that an aim is legitmate and so permissable for it to be fulfilled by any means, rather the justifiction for discrimination must be rationally assessed and thought given to any other means by which the aim could be achieved without causing unnecessary dsicrimination. This is the balancing.

As I understand it if taken to court, the burden would be on the council (or maybe gym) to prove that the means it chose are proportionate and that the unfavourable treatment of women could be objectively justitifed.

I cannot see how any council or gym could argue that succesfully when the Self ID policy would cetainly exclude some women, and provision of mixed sex and indivual cubilces is a perfectly reasonable and achieveable alternative (unless you bring feelings of vaildation into it (but these are not protect characteristics)

Am I anywhere near right?

Obviously GRC issues come into it which seems to be of some complicatio.

AngryAttackKittens · 17/07/2018 21:00

The "well you can report them if they commit a crime" argument is a bit shit, honestly. If someone breaks into my house and stabs me then I will definitely report them, but filing a police report will not stop the bleeding.

Italiangreyhound · 17/07/2018 21:01

@SarahAr what are you basing your views on what will happen in prisons (if self id comes in) on? Are you in a prison? Do you work in one?

Nice of you to be so sure how this won't affect female prisoners when we know this bollocks is already affecting females in prison!