Am I a gender abolitionist?

[RepeatAfterUs]

Hi I'm a long time lurker.

Ive been thinking a while-what is the actual point of gender? It is only beneficial to those in power. No one complies fully with gender - it's like a set of rules saying "you have a penis/vulva so this is how you must behave". How backwards!

So I get that some people experience what would probably be better termed sex dysphoria and wish to "change" their sex (in so far as that is possible).

Surely tho many of us GC women could be said to have gender dysphoria. I don't like many aspects of the gender society has imposed on me as a female although I accept that as a person in my 40s I've received a lot of conditioning that would be hard to undo.

I just don't understand trans gender. I understand trans sexual but we are told transgender people aren't necessarily suffering with GD nor do they wish to change their genitals. So when those people say they feel like a woman they're saying they feel like the gender that is imposed upon women. Which is not an actual woman but a stereotype of one. Which many many women don't actually want anything to do with and the last thing we need is for it to be pandered to.

I completely agree. I must be a gender abolitionist too.

Glad to hear it! I'm fed up with forms asking for my gender. I feel like saying-what is it you actually want to know? How much like Barbie I am?!

Yes I would say that I am, and have come in for rather a lot of flack for it on this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3303971-What-can-teachers-and-other-professionals-do-to-create-a-more-gender-free-environment-in-our-schools

Sarah I agree with schools being free from gender stereotypes but I don't wish to eliminate the fact that there are two sexes.

Nope me neither

I wasn't trying to make this a taat though. Sorry op.

I think so, yes. Men who are Genderists seem to relate to the image they have created and internalized of what performing woman should look like.

It all tallies in with how these men who want to change to the gender of a woman seem to HATE women. Firstly they think they can do their idea of woman better (they're welcome to it) and tbh their idea of what a woman is is so rank I'm not sure I'm that keen on it myself

Yes RepeatAfterUs I completely think the same. I hate the gender stereotypes that has been imposed on me. I hate that so much of my behaviour is still dictated by it due to conditioning. I hate that I shave my legs even though I don't want to really and it makes them sore but just can't get over the embarrassment of not doing it. And on, and on, and on.... And then suddenly we are being pushed to entrench this shit further into society and being told that what is actually being done is the opposite.

I. Don't. Get. It.

I hate the restrictions and constraints that gender puts on people.
It's harmful for men and women.
I hate the concept of gender conforming.

Yes Woman I feel like this
My daughter is quite hairy as DH is dark. She's a toddler so she's not noticed but I worry someone will say something when she's older. I am lazy about leg shaving but I still cannot go full on no leg shaving EVER even tho I wish I could, just to show her it's ok

Yes Voice it isn't good for men either. It's dreadful for boys and whatever is bad for one sex is bad for both in the end although society doesn't see it like that.

Yeah, I'm a gender abolitionist too, RepeatAfterUs. One of the great things about growing older is that I care less and less about fulfilling the stereotypes. Not that I was ever conventional, but I loved sex and men so I presented in a way that enhanced my chances of attracting the kind of man I wanted to.

Now I'm long term widowed, haven't had sex in years and that whole side of life has lost its grip on me. At times in my youth I felt my crutch was walking me around, so it's a relief.

I think that was the main area of my life where gender oppressed me, though I was also expressing myself sexually, in a way that was mostly very enjoyable and life enhancing.

You've got me thinking. I need to unpick this.

In terms of personality, I'm s total mash up of stereotypical masculine/feminine qualities. Intellectually and in terms of personality, I am strikingly like my DF and my DB. Neither sex nor gender is in my head at all. There's just a brain in there.

It's interesting to think about abolishing gender completely. Would horny young (or older) couples still identify and approach each other without the trappings? The clothes? The hair?

D'you know, I think they would.

I often reflect on the past Prawn; gender has always been there but it wasn't so rigid. i know many girls in the final year of primary who are wearing make up-I wasn't wearing make up at even 13 and felt absolutely no need to and you know what - boys were still interested and the human race still procreated. It always will

Gender has now been hijacked by marketing men and young girls are being sexualised, not just women.
Age has definitely improved things-I was like you, wanting to attract a man and it's funny because in nature the male animal is the showy one but we are the other way around.
We have been socialised now so we can never really get rid of gender but I think we should expose it for the bullshit it is

Age has definitely improved things-I was like you, wanting to attract a man and it's funny because in nature the male animal is the showy one but we are the other way around.

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate, RepeatAfterUs. Look at the men everyone fancied in my youth - Bowie, Marc Bolan, the exquisite Jim Morrison, and all the other tumble curled rock gods.

And then there's the Cavaliers and other men in history who wore lace, wigs and make up. At the time of the Cavaliers there was quite a lot of overlap between men and women's clothing - women wore dresses, but both sexes wore wigs, and loads of satin and lace.

Of course the historical figures were all aristocrats. Ordinary people didn't have the money to dress up. Indeed the sumptuary laws set strict limits on what they were even allowed to wear.

But I think across history and geography there have been examples of men peacocking. I just wish they did more of it. I do love long hair and a spot of satin on a bloke.

Gender is made up sexist nonsense. Only sex is real. Dividing people in to groups depending on how closely they align to macho or feminine stereotypes is a bizarre thing to do. What is the point of it? Who cares how macho or feminine you are?

If you're commenting on my posts, 2rebecca, I'm exploring how I've expressed myself sexually in terms of presentation and how men do too so it's less about gender than sex, iyswim.

There's also the element of finding your tribe. When I was young I was part of the counter culture. We identified each other through things like clothes and hair. Lots of hair for both sexes.

I'm with you on this RepeatAfterUs.

Gender is so restrictive and regressive. Just let people like things because they like things, not because they are supposed to because of their sex. What complete nonsense.

As the mother of primary aged children I am acutely aware of the 'genderisation' of children by the clothing and toys available, and it makes me quite angry. I do my best not to impose society's expectations on them but due to other outside influences (school mainly) I feel I am fighting a loosing battle.

I was commenting on the thread title

I may be. I'm still trying to think things through.

I've not really conformed to overt stereotyping, but have absorbed much of the subliminal messages (and am only just realising this).

But I am worried about it for my DCs' sake. Not just DD, but also on DS. Gender stereotypes don't help females or males.

I do my best to counter it, but am aware how incideous and widespread it is.

OK, 2rebecca. I wasn't sure what you were talking about. I suppose I'm having a think aloud about the overlap between sexual expression, which is healthy, and the oppressive expectations of gender.

Some years ago I was talking to a Texan woman online who told me that where she lived it was considered sloppy and badly turned out not to wear makeup for work or any public event, and that tights were compulsory for office work in the baking relentless heat. Women got heat rash. A lot. This struck me as a serious infringement of women's right to wear reasonable clothes for the weather. It basically demands that women perform femininity. Plus of course it's been demonstrated that air-conditioning is typically set at a temperature that suits men wearing typical male office attire, so it's too cold for women.

Now this was over 10 years ago, and things may have improved in the USA. I was pleased when that British woman won her case over refusing to wear heels at work. And I had no trouble wearing no makeup and flats for years working for a big company here.

If I was judged on wearing nice clothes and makeup, I'd be immediately re-labelled as a man. I haven't even looked in a mirror or brushed my hair yet today.

And yet, I love pretty things. I make bespoke bridal gowns. I make the bobbin lace that decorates them. I do the hand embroidery. I spend hours choosing delicate trimmings for the most exquisite dresses and work with some of the nicest silk on the planet.

Yet I can still out-fart my husband.

My point, which I believe I've totally lost, was that I confirm spectacularly in some ways, and utterly miss the feminine in others.

Surely we all do? That's what being human is - individuality.

Conform! Conform!!!

I need more coffee.

Lightbulb moment.

Is THIS why TRA and supporters say gender critical people want to erase trans? Because if there were no gender barriers there would be nothing for them to transition to or from?

So while we see the abolition of gender and gender stereotypes as a society where everyone could express themselves as they wish and be free from harm or discrimination when doing so they basically are having their specialness (for want of a better word) taken away? They feel that without their gender definitions they would not exist?

I have lurked here and in other places for a while now, and I've never got why the TRA think feminists hate them and want to erase them. I've never seen that. I've always seen acceptance of who they are as trans or gnc, a wish for them to go about their lives unmolested , and a belief that females need sex-based protections. That's pretty much where I am in my head anyway.

It's puzzled me. Apparently for being gender critical I am a transphobe, a bigot, a terf, and I deserve violence and hate as a consequence. But I have trans friends, I get on well with them, because I just accept them as people. They are part of my life, and that's fine. I will defend them against discrimination and hate to the best of my ability. I use preferred pronouns. Toilets are not an issue for me. But I don't, can't believe that they have changed sex. Being trans doesn't make them less human, it just makes them trans.

I won't buy into their lie that humans can change sex. That doesn't mean that I think trans people don't exist, or that I don't want them to, it just means (to me) that most of the people shouting loudest on this issue are either taking the piss (out of women) or they really don't seem to understand basic biology.