I was told I "present as female". I'm feeling surprisingly irked

[BlazeAway]

This was during a conversation about why I wouldn't define myself as cis (I tend to think it's regressive stereotyping). I said that I don't really have a gender identity — I'm female, but some of my skills and interests are more traditionally masculine.

I explained this and was told that I "present obviously female". Now, I was wearing straight cut jeans, a man's cricket club t-shirt (maybe XL boys', but still — crew neck, unshaped), no makeup or jewellery and my hair was in a tight bun. So even dressed in a reasonably androgynous way I apparently present as female and can't say differently?

I feel a bit like I was reduced to my body shape (even in a sports bra it's clear I have a bosom, I have slim wrists and small hands, and a heart-shaped face) and my voice and maybe my body language. All things that are sex not gender markers?

It's just left me feeling a bit annoyed — why will he believe people who are "properly" trans/non-binary yet refuse to believe that I don't have a gender identity?

Gender identity and presentation are different things, surely. That's why it's pretty easy to discriminate against women, because most of the time it's obvious which ones they are. I don't think about whether I have a gender identity very much but especially as I get older, I am always treated like a woman by others.

How far up themselves was this man? Use an elastic band to demonstrate how far, in the style of Chris Morris. I guarantee it will make more sense than what he said.

Men are loving this chance to police women.

He just means that you're a woman, but isn't allowed to acknowledge that because it's a thoughtcrime.

Every time you talk to him in future make sure you use approved phrases;

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Newspeak_words

So the only way you could present as less feminine would be to have a masculine style haircut?

You're right that what he was describing was you sexed body, not your choice of presentation, even if he denies it.

You look like a woman therefore he could deduce your gender identity

Now why doesn't that work on people who look like men ...

Surely it was a man bun

present obviously female

But surely a trans mtf presents as obviously male because he has an Adams apple.

Cos it’s all made up bollocks.

But @Destinysdaughter, are those male or female bollocks?

That is what to me signals that it is an exercise in obedience training.
Everyone must respect other people's identity except the people who assume the authority to tell women who and what we are. Men.
8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

The problem with 'present' in this usage is that it implies it's how you deliberately choose to try to appear to others, not how they happen to interpret the way you look.

Definition time again, for the relevant meaning of 'present': show someone or something in a particular way so that people have a particular opinion about them

You and I will appear female, probably regardless of however we may consciously try to 'present' ourselves.

He's the type of person who'd describe themselves as a "straight white cis male ally" and acknowledges their privilege, while at the same time managing to completely miss the fact he's using it to tell me I'm wrong...

So he presents as a misogynist?

He identifies as hero of the oppressed though, so that's what I should treat him as.

You're right Errol — I appear female rather than present as it. I just try to present as clean and fairly neat! Most of the time what I wear is a moot point anyway because it's hidden under a lab coat...

If I'd been having the conversation in a dress and heels and fully made up I could understand why he'd said it (even though I still wouldn't describe myself as cis), but there was nothing particularly feminine or masculine about the "trappings", so you'd think he'd listen to what I said rather than being swayed by appearance — instead he has decided my gender must be female because my body is female, so it's hardly surprising they match up!

Did you consider telling him to fuck off?

Well, metaphorically beat him over the head with a dictionary and explain the difference between 'present' and 'appear' (or 'be perceived as', perhaps might penetrate his sleepy woke brain better).

It's verbal abuse telling someone else what they think and feel - I'd be more than irked but bloody angry - what right have they? So they think they know you better than you?

'Female', unless its attached to our reproductive role, means only stereotypes. I'm not surprised you are irked.

I'm sure I can't escape "presenting" as female with my inescapable female fat distribution and hour glass body shape. The massively offensive thing about cis is that it implies I identify with the female gender stereotypes which have been forced on me from the outside.

Weirdly I was brought up very gender neutral and with no emphasis on my being female. I very much remember the point at which the outside world told me I was female and how I should behave.

So he assumed your gender?

The minute the word "cis" entered the conversation, I would have left it...

Surely, if someone is a supporter of self definition, it is up to you to declare how your 'present'?

If you went around telling other people how they 'presented' I think it could very easily get you into trouble....

I don't really understand

You have interests in subjects which would be deemed as 'masculine'? Fine.

Are women not allowed to do this and still classify themselves as binary?

It's abuse for anyone to tell another what they think and feel.

It's abuse for anyone to label another against their will

It's abuse to unrelentingly break others boundaries

No means no - men cannot be women